Matt wisler

auyushu said:
Yet still 100% accurate.

But if you are looking for specifics, Pomeranz was traded to the Red Sox last year for Anderson Espinoza, and I think we can all agree that Julio was more valuable than Pomeranz at the time. So I think we could have easily gotten something like Espinoza and Kopech for Julio, and very likely could have gotten Devers or Devers + Kopech for Julio from the Red Sox considering Devers was around the same level of prospect as Espinoza at the time.

Either of those options would look a heck of a lot better than having Julio right about now.
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So... you don't know what players were offered for Julio is what you're saying. 100% speculation is not 100% accurate.
 
zbhargrove said:
So... you don't know what players were offered for Julio is what you're saying. 100% speculation is not 100% accurate.
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The statement was that Julio was 2x as valuable as he is now.

Do you deny that? I know you're just being contrarian, or do you really think it was wise for the Braves to hold onto Julio?
 
Enscheff said:
The statement was that Julio was 2x as valuable as he is now.

Do you deny that? I know you're just being contrarian, or do you really think it was wise for the Braves to hold onto Julio?
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I am fine with holding onto JT... I would not have been upset with trading him, but not upset they didn't either. He is a good pitcher under a great contract. He will rebound fine. Having him is one less hole they have to fill. and with Weigel going down, I don't see too many better options on the immediate horizon.
 
zbhargrove said:
100% speculation is not 100% accurate.
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Apparently you and Tapate50 have reading comprehension problems, the part that was 100% accurate was Enscheff saying Julio was twice as valuable then as he is now. The rest of my post was logical conjecture.

If anything Enscheff was underselling things, as Julio has almost zero value right now, and had a ton last year in a year where a large amount of quality prospects were moved at the deadline and in this offseason. The grasping at straws and sticking heads in sand going on in this thread is rather pathetic. The Braves FO made a huge mistake not trading Julio either last season before the deadline or this offseason, that should be fairly self evident to any logical person, regardless of what we were offered for him.
 
auyushu said:
Apparently you and Tapate50 have reading comprehension problems, the part that was 100% accurate was Enscheff saying Julio was twice as valuable then as he is now. The rest of my post was logical conjecture.

If anything Enscheff was underselling things, as Julio has almost zero value right now, and had a ton last year in a year where a large amount of quality prospects were moved at the deadline and in this offseason. The grasping at straws and sticking heads in sand going on in this thread is rather pathetic. The Braves FO made a huge mistake not trading Julio either last season before the deadline or this offseason, that should be fairly self evident to any logical person, regardless of what we were offered for him.
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100% correct, as usual.
 
auyushu said:
Apparently you and Tapate50 have reading comprehension problems, the part that was 100% accurate was Enscheff saying Julio was twice as valuable then as he is now. The rest of my post was logical conjecture.

If anything Enscheff was underselling things, as Julio has almost zero value right now, and had a ton last year in a year where a large amount of quality prospects were moved at the deadline and in this offseason. The grasping at straws and sticking heads in sand going on in this thread is rather pathetic. The Braves FO made a huge mistake not trading Julio either last season before the deadline or this offseason, that should be fairly self evident to any logical person, regardless of what we were offered for him.
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Depends entirely on what they were offered.
 
Enscheff said:
Something at least 2x as valuable as what they could get for him now.
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This is undeniable.

I understand the logic of keeping JT, but JT having this type of season didn't exactly come out of nowhere. The Johns knew the risk, took it, and now should be accountable for the consequence.
 
chop2chip said:
This is undeniable.

I understand the logic of keeping JT, but JT having this type of season didn't exactly come out of nowhere. The Johns knew the risk, took it, and now should be accountable for the consequence.
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The consequence is that they have a cost controlled rotation starter.
 
Enscheff said:
Pozzy Barves asssemmmmbbllle!!
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I mean its the truth. They didn't get a package that blew them away. They valued a cost controlled rotation starter more than they valued whatever apparently modest prospect package they might have gotten. In fact, I don't even know of a proposed deal.

There is probably no reason to expect that Teheran doesn't more than earn his contract going forward.

If he bombs out of baseball then we can all say in hindsight they should have taken whatever was offered, but that doesn't make it a reasonable decision at the time.

We actually lack the information necessarily to evaluate the decision.

And no amount of -- we probably could have gotten Devers or Espinoza really adds anything relevant to the discussion.
 
Southcack77 said:
I mean its the truth. They didn't get a package that blew them away. They valued a cost controlled rotation starter more than they valued whatever apparently modest prospect package they might have gotten. In fact, I don't even know of a proposed deal.

There is probably no reason to expect that Teheran doesn't more than earn his contract going forward.

If he bombs out of baseball then we can all say in hindsight they should have taken whatever was offered, but that doesn't make it a reasonable decision at the time.

We actually lack the information necessarily to evaluate the decision.

And no amount of -- we probably could have gotten Devers or Espinoza really adds anything relevant to the discussion.
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That's the difference between folks that evaluate the results and folks that evaluate the process. You don't need hindsight to evaluate the process. In fact, I try to make it a point to not let results influence how I rate a decision.

We knew Julio was at max value during the rebuild. We knew the Braves were wasting his most valuable years on a losing team. We knew there was a very good chance he would be a shell of his former self by the time the Braves were good.

We knew all those things as facts, yet the FO used a poor process and kept him. You can make as many excuses to defend them as you want, but the fact is that keeping Teheran was the wrong decision back when it was made. His poor performance this year is not why the decision to keep him was wrong.

We don't need the benefit of hindsight...we knew it was wrong when it was happening.
 
auyushu said:
Apparently you and Tapate50 have reading comprehension problems, the part that was 100% accurate was Enscheff saying Julio was twice as valuable then as he is now. The rest of my post was logical conjecture.

If anything Enscheff was underselling things, as Julio has almost zero value right now, and had a ton last year in a year where a large amount of quality prospects were moved at the deadline and in this offseason. The grasping at straws and sticking heads in sand going on in this thread is rather pathetic. The Braves FO made a huge mistake not trading Julio either last season before the deadline or this offseason, that should be fairly self evident to any logical person, regardless of what we were offered for him.
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Show me where I disagreed with Encheff about him having 2x the value as he does now? Clearly Julion's struggles contribute to that value plummeting. I'm not blind, but just assuming we could have Devers and Kopesh if we would have wanted, isn't really based in reality.

Reading comprehension issues eh?

\\Omar Voice " Oh, Indeed "
 
Tapate50 said:
Show me where I disagreed with Encheff about him having 2x the value as he does now? Clearly Julion's struggles contribute to that value plummeting. I'm not blind, but just assuming we could have Devers and Kopesh if we would have wanted, isn't really based in reality.

Reading comprehension issues eh?

\\Omar Voice Indeed
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Yeah, that one's odd.
 
Enscheff said:
That's the difference between folks that evaluate the results and folks that evaluate the process. You don't need hindsight to evaluate the process. In fact, I try to make it a point to not let results influence how I rate a decision.

We knew Julio was at max value during the rebuild. We knew the Braves were wasting his most valuable years on a losing team. We knew there was a very good chance he would be a shell of his former self by the time the Braves were good.

We knew all those things as facts, yet the FO used a poor process and kept him. You can make as many excuses to defend them as you want, but the fact is that keeping Teheran was the wrong decision back when it was made. His poor performance this year is not why the decision to keep him was wrong.

We don't need the benefit of hindsight...we knew it was wrong when it was happening.
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Well, present me with the offers that were made for them and we can have a discussion.

Saying he definitely should have been traded without presenting the viable options isn't really a discussion or particularly insightful. It's fantasy baseball at best. Idle chatter and laughable nonsense at worst.

Teheran is controlled through 2020 at a reasonable cost. No reason why he would not be a part of a Braves playoff team.

Would I have liked for them to trade Teheran for elite prospects? Sure. But someone would have had to have valued him that way and the evidence suggests no one did.
 
Southcack77 said:
Well, present me with the offers that were made for them and we can have a discussion.

Saying he definitely should have been traded without presenting the viable options isn't really a discussion or particularly insightful. It's fantasy baseball at best. Idle chatter and laughable nonsense at worst.

Teheran is controlled through 2020 at a reasonable cost. No reason why he would not be a part of a Braves playoff team.

Would I have liked for them to trade Teheran for elite prospects? Sure. But someone would have had to have valued him that way and the evidence suggests no one did.
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His value was the best offer someone made to acquire him. That is the definition of "value". That value has since decreased substantially, as many folks stated it would 2-3 years ago. Literally every single analysts unaffiliated with the Braves stated he should be traded. Every poster with half a clue on this board said he should have been traded.

Now the Braves owe him the same kind of money they paid for Colon and Dickey, and may not get production better than those guys gave them.

So how is that valuable in any way, shape or form?

You can hem and haw about what we did and didn't know 2-3 years ago, but you're wrong if the conclusion you come to is anything other than "the Braves should have traded Teheran for the best offer available during the rebuild".

You were wrong then. You are wrong now. And you will be wrong the next time you disagree with that statement. Hindsight is proving that statement correct at this very moment, and we didn't even need hindsight to know that statement was correct 2-3 years ago. Even if Julio bonces back to being a #3 SP, the Braves still wasted at least half of his value pitching meaningless innings for a losing team.
 
Enscheff said:
His value was the best offer someone made to acquire him. That is the definition of "value". That value has since decreased substantially, as many folks stated it would 2-3 years ago. Literally every single analysts unaffiliated with the Braves stated he should be traded. Every poster with half a clue on this board said he should have been traded.

Now the Braves owe him the same kind of money they paid for Colon and Dickey, and may not get production better than those guys gave them.

So how is that valuable in any way, shape or form?

You can hem and haw about what we did and didn't know 2-3 years ago, but you're wrong if the conclusion you come to is anything other than "the Braves should have traded Teheran for the best offer available during the rebuild".

You were wrong then. You are wrong now. And you will be wrong the next time you disagree with that statement. Hindsight is proving that statement correct at this very moment, and we didn't even need hindsight to know that statement was correct 2-3 years ago. Even if Julio bonces back to being a #3 SP, the Braves still wasted at least half of his value pitching meaningless innings for a losing team.
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You are so strange.

How could I have possibly been wrong about Teheran 2-3 years ago? I didn't know this forum existed 2-3 years ago. You spend so much time saying I am going to be wrong about things without telling me what it is I'm wrong about.

I certainly have never said the Braves should never trade Teheran. At the same time there is no reason to trade a player controlled cheaply for five years for nothing much. There is no way of evaluating whether a decision is a mistake without knowing what the parameters of the decision entailed.

I can't say whether Teheran will rebound or not, but I do know that you have said that you believe he will today. I tend to think there is very little reason to think his career is done though.
 
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