McGuirk: Coppella Exit Like Cutting ‘Cancer’ To Move Ahead

Southcack77 said:
I hated both of those deals immediately. I never imagined that they would be arguably the two worst players in baseball. I don't know why the Braves so often have someone in the running for that distinction. Generally someone who was a big acquisition (Not just a Wren thing).
Click to expand...

Paging Nick Esasky.
 
Southcack77 said:
I hated both of those deals immediately. I never imagined that they would be arguably the two worst players in baseball. I don't know why the Braves so often have someone in the running for that distinction. Generally someone who was a big acquisition (Not just a Wren thing).
Click to expand...

Old hash, but: the mistake wasn’t acquiring Uggla, it was extenting him. The trade itself was solid.
 
jpx7 said:
Old hash, but: the mistake wasn’t acquiring Uggla, it was extenting him. The trade itself was solid.
Click to expand...

I didn't like Uggla but sure the trade was ok. The extension was incomprehensible. I got pretty heated with a friend of mine that suggested it was a good deal because he was the best right handed power hitter in the league or something like. That might not have been far off in terms of power, I don't know know, but the extension was insane from the jump to me.
 
Southcack77 said:
I didn't like Uggla but sure the trade was ok. The extension was incomprehensible. I got pretty heated with a friend of mine that suggested it was a good deal because he was the best right handed power hitter in the league or something like. That might not have been far off in terms of power, I don't know know, but the extension was insane from the jump to me.
Click to expand...

Infante plus Dunn for two things the team really ended (better 2B production and RH power). That’s a solid trade.

But, as has been noted countlessly, he had an old-man body and all-or-nothing game even as a pre-30s player, and that often bodes for quick declines.
 
jpx7 said:
Old hash, but: the mistake wasn’t acquiring Uggla, it was extenting him. The trade itself was solid.
Click to expand...

I'll go halfsies with you. The extension was a total blunder, but it's interesting to note that at Baseball Reference, Infante's cumulative WAR is higher than Uggla's for the two years in Atlanta when Uggla was reasonably productive. It's a landslide for Infante if you add up the four years Uggla was in Atlanta. Omar Infante will never be confused with Jose Lind, but Uggla's defense was simply miserable and I do find it interesting that guys who deride Venus de Milo imitator Shawn Kemp for being a horrible OF (and he is a horrible OF) seem to be arguing from the other side in defense of the Uggla deal.
 
bravesnumberone said:
Wren and Coppy had pluses and minuses.

I think it's worth pointing out that the 2010 team had injured Chipper, injured Prado, injured Jair and injured Wagner and still pushed the eventual WS Giants. Should have won the series honestly and if that team had been completely healthy, might have won the WS. The 2013 team was very good. It's still inexcusable that Kimbrel wasn't in the game in the eighth of game four against the Dodgers. If we could have closed that out, we would have cleared Kershaw and at least a reasonable chance of winning game five. Might not have fared well against the Cardinals, but if this team had a 2010 world championship and 2013 NLCS appearance, Idk how much of a **** people would have given about a down farm system. Maybe it would have caught up eventually.
Click to expand...

That team has some good names on it for comedy purpose.

Melky Cabrera, Troy Glaus, McLouth!, Alex Gonzalez, Derek Lee, Eric Hinske, Brooks Conrad!

Arguably, the best Braves pen. Wagner, Saito, O'Flaherty, Venters, Moylan.
 
50PoundHead said:
I'll go halfsies with you. The extension was a total blunder, but it's interesting to note that at Baseball Reference, Infante's cumulative WAR is higher than Uggla's for the two years in Atlanta when Uggla was reasonably productive. It's a landslide for Infante if you add up the four years Uggla was in Atlanta. Omar Infante will never be confused with Jose Lind, but Uggla's defense was simply miserable and I do find it interesting that guys who deride Venus de Milo imitator Shawn Kemp for being a horrible OF (and he is a horrible OF) seem to be arguing from the other side in defense of the Uggla deal.
Click to expand...

Would have been better just to keep Infante for sure in hindsight.

I thought they were selling high. Ah well.
 
McLouth was another deal that looked a lot better at the time than in hindsight.
 
50PoundHead said:
I'll go halfsies with you. The extension was a total blunder, but it's interesting to note that at Baseball Reference, Infante's cumulative WAR is higher than Uggla's for the two years in Atlanta when Uggla was reasonably productive. It's a landslide for Infante if you add up the four years Uggla was in Atlanta. Omar Infante will never be confused with Jose Lind, but Uggla's defense was simply miserable and I do find it interesting that guys who deride Venus de Milo imitator Shawn Kemp for being a horrible OF (and he is a horrible OF) seem to be arguing from the other side in defense of the Uggla deal.
Click to expand...

I’ll admit to having been, for whatever reason, very much not a fan of Infante’s, so I likely undervalue him, which certainly at the time affected my calculus of the “upgrade” to Uggla. But it’s a fair question to ask: did the very real deficiency that Uggla addressed (RH power) make up for the likewise very real defensive downgrade. I don’t know, honestly.

But I’m also one that thought, despite his abhorrent defense, that Kemp could’ve added value to the past couple years of Braves teams if he’d been properly managed (more rest; defensive substitution aggressively in later innings)—because of the same deficiency in RH power (plus the added deficiency of just not having many productive hitters anywhere on the roster).
 
50PoundHead said:
There gets to be a lot of unwarranted Melvin defense among some. His OBP during his final year in Tampa was < .300. His defense was never particularly good. Wren should have been in the market for a guy like Denard Span and probably could have gotten him for someone like J.R. Graham. As for Uggla, he was never a good athlete and one look at his body type should have been enough of a caution never to extend him.
Click to expand...

Sorry but it was almost a universally good mood.

What people forget was going into that year there were 3 teams with a big need in CF (Braves, Phillies, and Nats) who were going to be in the market. There were presumably 3 CFs on the market, Bourn, Upton, and Span. What shifted that whole market was the Twins electing to trade both Span and Revere. Meyer the guy they got from Washington wound up being a top 50 prospect. Which would have upped what we would have had to give. For example in 2013, his MLB.com's prospect in similar ranges were guys like Odorizzi, Ventura, Fried, Gray, and Bauer. He was a legit prospect. Our only shot to top the Nationals offer was Julio. We would have had a better comp to Revere where someone like Beachy/Medlen for. But Revere was never ever good.

It's also worth noting that Span and Upton were basically the same age, so your options would be to trade your top prospect or overpay on a signing. Span's career stats to that point were .284/.357/.389 104 OPS+ 104 wRC+ 17.2 rWAR in 2671 PA. and 15.1 fWAR. Upton's career til then .255/.321/.422 105 OPS+ 104 wrC+ 21.0 rWAR in 4000 PA 22.3 fWAR. So value wise they were relatively close. So your question is do you go with span who was the lighter hitting lefty. Or Upton the heavier hitting righty.

Remember that is a consideration as our top players at that point were Freeman, Heyward, and McCann. Uggla and Prado were the only decent hitting RH hitters. Wren's dream was in one offseason turning in a perfectly balanced lineup where you have Heyward, Freeman, McCann balanced with Uggla, Upton and Upton. Of course that didn't work out. But it wasn't a bad idea.
 
50PoundHead said:
I'll go halfsies with you. The extension was a total blunder, but it's interesting to note that at Baseball Reference, Infante's cumulative WAR is higher than Uggla's for the two years in Atlanta when Uggla was reasonably productive. It's a landslide for Infante if you add up the four years Uggla was in Atlanta. Omar Infante will never be confused with Jose Lind, but Uggla's defense was simply miserable and I do find it interesting that guys who deride Venus de Milo imitator Shawn Kemp for being a horrible OF (and he is a horrible OF) seem to be arguing from the other side in defense of the Uggla deal.
Click to expand...

But if Uggla aged as expected he would have bested Infante for what we needed. It's worth noting that Infante would probably have been close on value.
 
I think the biggest complaint re Melvin was not the core concept (again, sans hindsight), but the idea that Wren was too proactively aggressive vis-à-vis that CF market, and effectively bid up Upton’s cost against himself. Hard to know if that’s actually the case, though, even with hindsight.
 
jpx7 said:
I think the biggest complaint re Melvin was not the core concept (again, sans hindsight), but the idea that Wren was too proactively aggressive vis-à-vis that CF market, and effectively bid up Upton’s cost against himself. Hard to know if that’s actually the case, though, even with hindsight.
Click to expand...

Worth remembering that the last time Wren had money to spend in FA and a clear need he was looking for the best deal and all the SP got bought up really quick and he got in a bidding war with the Mets on Lowe that he didn't want to be in. It's the old sometimes you're damned if you do sometimes you're damned if you don't. If you had a crystal ball and had seen Span and Revere both traded then he could have sat back and just waited for Upton or Bourn to accept an offer. But who knows. Maybe the Twins were prodded into making those trades (as in the Nats and Phillies upped their offers) after the Upton signing. It's hard to play hindsight.
 
jpx7 said:
I’ll admit to having been, for whatever reason, very much not a fan of Infante’s, so I likely undervalue him, which certainly at the time affected my calculus of the “upgrade” to Uggla. But it’s a fair question to ask: did the very real deficiency that Uggla addressed (RH power) make up for the likewise very real defensive downgrade. I don’t know, honestly.

But I’m also one that thought, despite his abhorrent defense, that Kemp could’ve added value to the past couple years of Braves teams if he’d been properly managed (more rest; defensive substitution aggressively in later innings)—because of the same deficiency in RH power (plus the added deficiency of just not having many productive hitters anywhere on the roster).
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. There's a risk/reward calculation for most players below the top tier and Kemp was horribly mismanaged in Atlanta. Phillies managed a guy like Burrell well, which is what Kemp basically has become. For whatever reason, Snitker refused to pull the trigger on late-game defensive adjustments.

zeets, sorry. Respect your opinion, but people act as though Upton was the only option. I throw Span out there as a low-cost option, but the Braves' need for the RH bat was real. The problem I always thought with Wren's approach is that he never thought outside the box that much. If you have the kind of talent base the Braves had during much of Wren's tenure, he wasn't very creative in filling in around the base. His solution always seemed to be "go out and get a marquee (or just below the marquee) guy." He didn't think about platoons. I'm not a huge analytics guy, but the Braves' paucity of knowledge in trying to fill around their first-team players was fairly obvious during Wren's tenure. At least to me. And Melvin simply did a face plant and looking at his marginal OBP during his time in Tampa, there were signs that he was a bigger risk than advertised.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top