MINORS THREAD FINAL4/27 ... Walkoff HR for Franco

striker42 said:
I'm not talking about Teheran's early years. I'm talking about right now. Right now he's throwing 90-91 and is a successful number 2 starter. My point is that throwing 90-91 doesn't cap your potential at #4. So if Soroka is in the majors throwing 91, that wont cap his potential at being a #4.

And I'm not making any predictions about Soroka. I said earlier in this thread that these guys can be hard to predict. You never know when a kid is taking advantage of being more advanced than the hitters he's facing and when he's just that good. The higher levels will tell a lot. The early results are encouraging but we'll see as he moves along.

Also, velocity and stuff aren't the same thing. Velocity certainly helps but there are other ways to be nasty than to throw 98.
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Soroka was hitting 94 in the game I saw the other night. maybe that gun was off. He will also probably add a few ticks like everyone says. He has huge shoulders and a big frame. He is going to fill out more.
 
TheBravos said:
It's different for the older college guys, but again...these guys in their teens are gonna gain weight and muscle. Heck a few might still even grow more. An 18-19 year old's fastball will most likely gain velocity. I remember how much I filled out between 18-23.
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I am starting to fill out in my 40's. need to get back downstairs and stop this filling out..
 
bravesfanMatt said:
how many 97 mph guys get knocked around. Hitters can hit a guy throwing 98 just as easy as 91.. the key is deception and movement. I could burry 5 sliders on the outside corner and then throw an 88 mph fastball on your hands and you would never catch up to it. even if I told you it was coming.
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Guys throwing 97 get knocked around for a number of reasons. They might be throwing 97 but straight, they might not be able to change speeds effectively, they might have bad control and fall into bad counts, they might be making mistakes in the zone, etc. Velocity is in no way the only thing that matters.

That being said it's foolish to dismiss velocity as irrelevant. Holding all other things equal, a pitch at 97 is harder to hit than the same pitch at 91. Velocity can make good pitches more over powering and it can help you get away with more mistakes. While elite velocity isn't necessary to be a top notch pitcher, it certainly helps.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
but speed..
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What about it? Velocity is pretty important for 99% of pitchers. Finding the handful of starters that succeed as good starters at the MLB level and ignoring the vast amount that don't (and even more who never make it to the show) isn't something I would support. I like to look at probabilities and not the absolute 1% of a players ceiling.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
Soroka was hitting 94 in the game I saw the other night. maybe that gun was off. He will also probably add a few ticks like everyone says. He has huge shoulders and a big frame. He is going to fill out more.
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I hope so. Soroka sitting at 94 would be a very good thing. I also expect him to fill out and add some more velocity. He's got a lot of room to grow.
 
Guys have velo dips all the time. I think this 90-91 is being wayyy overblown. I haven't read anywhere that that is common for him.
 
thewupk said:
What about it? Velocity is pretty important for 99% of pitchers. Finding the handful of starters that succeed as good starters at the MLB level and ignoring the vast amount that don't (and even more who never make it to the show) isn't something I would support. I like to look at probabilities and not the absolute 1% of a players ceiling.
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But the vast majority of pitchers today throw hard. Everybody wants to throw harder. I think that has a lot to do with the increase in injuries. But no one wants to learn to throw strikes. Kershaw avgs around 93.. Do you really think he would be a #4 if he decided to ease off to 91 average? No, what makes him special is his pin point control and ability to move his pitches around.. He is toying with guys now by introducing that 60 mph lolly pop.. Great pitchers are great because, like you said, they locate, change speeds, and movement. deception not speed is what makes them great.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
Soroka was hitting 94 in the game I saw the other night. maybe that gun was off. He will also probably add a few ticks like everyone says. He has huge shoulders and a big frame. He is going to fill out more.
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See, that changes everything.

So is he 94, or is he 90? That's the difference between a #2 and a #4.
 
Enscheff said:
So is he 94, or is he 90? That's the difference between a #2 and a #4.
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Where the heck are you even getting this 90 FB nonsense with him? Everyone that's scouted him says he sits in the 92 range and hits 94ish at certain points. FG's guy has him at a 55 grade on him right now, which is 92+, and multiple places have him as either a current or future grade of 60 on his fastball. He's projected as a mid rotation starter pretty much everywhere.
 
thewupk said:
What about it? Velocity is pretty important for 99% of pitchers. Finding the handful of starters that succeed as good starters at the MLB level and ignoring the vast amount that don't (and even more who never make it to the show) isn't something I would support. I like to look at probabilities and not the absolute 1% of a players ceiling.
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This thread really went off the rails. Because one person saw Soroka throwing in the low 90s in one start, someone said that if he throws there consistently he'll never be a top of the rotation starter, which is hardly the only useful outcome for him anyway.

From there Soroka's velocity evolved to barely throwing 90 and it became unclear if the poor guy could even succeed in AA for much longer.

Now we've been told that you just can't succeed in the major leagues if you don't throw really hard, even though most major league starters don't necessarily throw very hard and plenty of them are successful, if not aces. Though some of them have great seasons.

Of course any examples of these guys are total outliers and you would be stupid to bring them up. And hell times have changed so who even knows if 300 game winners would even make a roster these days since hitters are so much better (despite being statistically worse).

Just another day of people digging holes and then digging in deeper.
 
Southcack77 said:
This thread really went off the rails. Because one person saw Soroka throwing in the low 90s in one start, someone said that if he throws there consistently he'll never be a top of the rotation starter, which is hardly the only useful outcome for him anyway.

From there Soroka's velocity evolved to barely throwing 90 and it became unclear if the poor guy could even succeed in AA for much longer.

Now we've been told that you just can't succeed in the major leagues if you don't throw really hard, even though most major league starters don't necessarily throw very hard and plenty of them are successful, if not aces. Though some of them have great seasons.

Of course any examples of these guys are total outliers and you would be stupid to bring them up. And hell times have changed so who even knows if 300 game winners would even make a roster these days since hitters are so much better (despite being statistically worse).

Just another day of people digging holes and then digging in deeper.
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Who here has said that? All I'm seeing is that you need to throw harder than 90 to be a TOR.
 
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