NBA Thread

thethe said:
There is an argument to be made that at the peak of their powers you'd take Shaq over everyone but Jordan.
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If I'm starting a franchise, I'm going Jordan 1 and Lebron 2. But I don't see how you can take anyone over Shaq at 3. Dominant scorer, dominant on the boards, and least early in his career, he was dominant defensively as well. Just an unstoppable overall force. Prime Shaq on your team is winning 50-60 games a year, regardless of who is around him.
 
Carp said:
If I'm starting a franchise, I'm going Jordan 1 and Lebron 2. But I don't see how you can take anyone over Shaq at 3. Dominant scorer, dominant on the boards, and least early in his career, he was dominant defensively as well. Just an unstoppable overall force. Prime Shaq on your team is winning 50-60 games a year, regardless of who is around him.
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Argument either way but I still think Shaq dominated a game like nobody other than Jordan ever did.

Probably becuase I was younger when Jordan/Shaq were dominating so it was super human to me but I don't think Lebron ever reached that level. Talking about career achievements Lebron blows everyone out of the water.
 
chop2chip said:
This is an absolutely wild take.

Chris Paul top 6 player ever?

Dirk, Malone and Stockton over Shaq?
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Chris Paul is an all time great. HE's the best Point Guard of all time in terms of cumulative stats. Of course Magic is the GOAT in terms of rate, but Magic didn't play that many games because of the hivvy.

Shaq vs. Dirk, Malone and Stockton.

Shaq played about 42K minutes, 28.5 K points, 13K RB 3K assists.

Dirk played about 51K minutes 31.5 K points 11K RB 3.5K Assists

Malone played about 55K Minutes 37K Points 15K RB 5K Assists

Stockton played about 48K Minutes about 20K Points 4 K RB, about 20K Assists.

Shaq was great, if shaq could shoot free throws he'd be top 10 of all time. Shaq went to the line 11252 times and only made 5935. Let's not go to the extreme that is to say what if he could shoot FT like he was Embiid, but what if he could shoot them like Hakeem, If he could he would have almost 2000 more points. That is a big knock on him.

But beyond that, Shaq feels like a top 10 player because he was a beast, but he winds up being like Vlad Guerrero, had all the tools and looked great, but didn't put up the numbers. Shaq lost some accumulation of other greats, and you can question other things. If you're a big buyer into PER, then yeah you could put him near the top. But rather than PER I prefer Win Shares or VORP.
 
Carp said:
If I'm starting a franchise, I'm going Jordan 1 and Lebron 2. But I don't see how you can take anyone over Shaq at 3. Dominant scorer, dominant on the boards, and least early in his career, he was dominant defensively as well. Just an unstoppable overall force. Prime Shaq on your team is winning 50-60 games a year, regardless of who is around him.
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Starting a Franchise as in I had the player for their career? And you take Shaq over Kareem?

COme on man.
 
thethe said:
Argument either way but I still think Shaq dominated a game like nobody other than Jordan ever did.

Probably becuase I was younger when Jordan/Shaq were dominating so it was super human to me but I don't think Lebron ever reached that level. Talking about career achievements Lebron blows everyone out of the water.
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Fun fact, in terms of top WS performances in playoff years, lebron has 3 of the top 5 playoff WS performances of all time, top five is

Duncan in 03, Bron in12, Dirk in 06, Bron in 13, and Bron in 18. Rounding out the top 10 is Kawhi in 19, Bron in 09, Jordan in 98, Wade in 06 and Jordan in 91.

Jordan is a beast though. I'm not downplaying him.

I'd take Jordan 1, Bron 2, and who cares who else I have. Like I could give you your choice of C, PF, and PG, I could take the 4th best at those positions and I'd win. THat's how big of a gap I believe there is from LeBron and Jordan to the next best SF/SG is.
 
Carp said:
Yes I am. Cause Shaq is that dominant.
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Shaq's best season was probably 99, he had 29.7 PPG, 13.6 TRB, 3.0 BLK. and just for spice the most steals 0.9 from back in 93-94.

Because BLocks and until 73/74. Compare to Kareem's 76 27.7 PPG 16.9 TRB 4.1 BLK and 1.5 STL.

Kareem was a beast. ANd he could have had even better seasons in the Early 70s.
 
zitothebrave said:
Shaq's best season was probably 99, he had 29.7 PPG, 13.6 TRB, 3.0 BLK. and just for spice the most steals 0.9 from back in 93-94.

Because BLocks and until 73/74. Compare to Kareem's 76 27.7 PPG 16.9 TRB 4.1 BLK and 1.5 STL.

Kareem was a beast. ANd he could have had even better seasons in the Early 70s.
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Different eras. Not saying Kareem wouldn't also be great in the 90's or after, but it's important to understand context of why he was so dominant in the 70's (much like Wilt Chamberlain before him).

But even still, it isn't just about raw stats. Shaq is a guy who's dominance isn't era dependent. Put Shaq in any era now, past, or future and he's going to be dominant because he's literally ungaurdable. Feed him the ball 30-40 times and he's gonna bully his way 40 pts, 10-20 rebounds, and 2-3 blocks.
 
zitothebrave said:
Shaq's best season was probably 99, he had 29.7 PPG, 13.6 TRB, 3.0 BLK. and just for spice the most steals 0.9 from back in 93-94.

Because BLocks and until 73/74. Compare to Kareem's 76 27.7 PPG 16.9 TRB 4.1 BLK and 1.5 STL.

Kareem was a beast. ANd he could have had even better seasons in the Early 70s.
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Using a straight statistical argument for Shaq misses the big picture.

Nobody had a chance against him and the whole offense ran through him.
 
thethe said:
Using a straight statistical argument for Shaq misses the big picture.

Nobody had a chance against him and the whole offense ran through him.
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Basketball era’s are so vastly different it makes basically no sense.

Pace of play makes it pointless. It would be like comparing players who played 7 innings every day to guys who play 10 innings.

And then you have the 3 pt revolution, rule changes like banning hand checking, etc.
 
Carp said:
Different eras. Not saying Kareem wouldn't also be great in the 90's or after, but it's important to understand context of why he was so dominant in the 70's (much like Wilt Chamberlain before him).

But even still, it isn't just about raw stats. Shaq is a guy who's dominance isn't era dependent. Put Shaq in any era now, past, or future and he's going to be dominant because he's literally ungaurdable. Feed him the ball 30-40 times and he's gonna bully his way 40 pts, 10-20 rebounds, and 2-3 blocks.
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The problem with this is that shaq didn't do that consistently. Shaq could have been the greatest ever but he wasn't. I mean you're essentially arguing Vlad Guerrero or Roberto CLemente over Hank Aaron.

Kareem you could argue was an era thing. Because he was dawn/pre 3 point era. But Kareem also played in the era where he was hacked and whacked and beat up int he paint, that era was over before Shaq entered the league

People act like Kareem played against a bunch of bums, he was playing in a league with Moses Malone, Bill Walton, Robert Parish, Bob McAdoo, etc. It wasn't like he didn't play with big men who had game. He just was that much better. You could make the Babe Ruth arguement against him in that he was so far ahead of the people he played with. But he also did all that back without the benefits that the modern game offers as well.
 
chop2chip said:
Basketball era’s are so vastly different it makes basically no sense.

Pace of play makes it pointless. It would be like comparing players who played 7 innings every day to guys who play 10 innings.

And then you have the 3 pt revolution, rule changes like banning hand checking, etc.
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I wasn't comparing them across eras, I was comparing them vs. their peers.
 
zitothebrave said:
The problem with this is that shaq didn't do that consistently. Shaq could have been the greatest ever but he wasn't. I mean you're essentially arguing Vlad Guerrero or Roberto CLemente over Hank Aaron.

Kareem you could argue was an era thing. Because he was dawn/pre 3 point era. But Kareem also played in the era where he was hacked and whacked and beat up int he paint, that era was over before Shaq entered the league

People act like Kareem played against a bunch of bums, he was playing in a league with Moses Malone, Bill Walton, Robert Parish, Bob McAdoo, etc. It wasn't like he didn't play with big men who had game. He just was that much better. You could make the Babe Ruth arguement against him in that he was so far ahead of the people he played with. But he also did all that back without the benefits that the modern game offers as well.
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Then have a different list. Career accomplishments versus actual best players.

In no world was CP3 a better player than Shaq or ever had more of an impact.

Again - IF you want to say who had hte better career then its a different discussion.
 
thethe said:
Then have a different list. Career accomplishments versus actual best players.

In no world was CP3 a better player than Shaq or ever had more of an impact.

Again - IF you want to say who had hte better career then its a different discussion.
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Usually when someone says someone is a top 10 player they're taking into account their whole career.

For example, Yaz's 1967 season is arguably the best post WWII season in baseball history. I don't think anyone would consider Yaz one of the top 10 position players of the post WWII era over Mays, Aaron, Henderson, Mantle, Robinson, Pujols etc. Much less consider him the best.
 
zitothebrave said:
Usually when someone says someone is a top 10 player they're taking into account their whole career.

For example, Yaz's 1967 season is arguably the best post WWII season in baseball history. I don't think anyone would consider Yaz one of the top 10 position players of the post WWII era over Mays, Aaron, Henderson, Mantle, Robinson, Pujols etc. Much less consider him the best.
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Now you're comparing basketball to baseball....
 
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