No discussion on the theater shooting?

Had Obama strictly concentrated on more stringent background checks, it would have passed. The bigger issue here though is black on black crime. Maybe a good jobs bill is a better solution than gun control?

Wasn't it Feinstein that was going for renewal on assault ban?

I remember Obama going for background checks as early as January after the new year began just a few weeks after Newtown.

And you know the jobs bill won't pass unless democrats get a stipulation of more handouts while Republicans won't budge unless they get tons of wasted pork for their districts, so we're back to square zero because we never got to square one.
 
Also wes, just face it the GOP are not going to help pass any sensible jobs bill this year or next because 2016 is right around the corner and if jobs numbers are good at the end of Obama's term then it will give a boost for Hillary's run in 2016 and we know the GOP will not allow that. They can sit back and not do a thing for the next 2 years and when job numbers remain stagnant they can just go to their constituents and just say "see Obama didn't do anything he sucked blah blah blah, vote me for re-election and also vote for Rubio/Christie/Paul so we can finally fix the country".

So that pipedream is pretty much passed.
 
Also wes, just face it the GOP are not going to help pass any sensible jobs bill this year or next because 2016 is right around the corner and if jobs numbers are good at the end of Obama's term then it will give a boost for Hillary's run in 2016 and we know the GOP will not allow that. They can sit back and not do a thing for the next 2 years and when job numbers remain stagnant they can just go to their constituents and just say "see Obama didn't do anything he sucked blah blah blah, vote me for re-election and also vote for Rubio/Christie/Paul so we can finally fix the country".

So that pipedream is pretty much passed.

Sounds very similar to 08
 
The problem is we've distributed so many guns into circulation legally and illegally to the point where not only good guys have them but bad guys have had access to them as well.

And the only "solution" the right has is to bring more guns into the picture legally.

The entire point is to curb gun violence by lowering and discouraging the amount of guns in circulation, but everytime "liberals" try to make the argument, the right comes back with the 2nd Amendment crap and Obama is coming to take all your guns and put you in concentration camps cynicism. From there we can never make any actual progress on anything.

The focus should be taking guns out of the hands of people that shouldn't have them. Not limiting the supply of guns, which simply drives up prices and makes guns purchased on the street more prevalent.
 
I have to admit I'm a little perplexed by your reading of Hobbes.

What specifically perplexes you?

I will admit I was being purposefully glib with my initial comments re Hobbes; I do not think Leviathan (which is all I’ve read of Hobbes) is without valuable insights. However, I simply think the state of Nature heuristic is needlessly simplistic and speculative—being anterior to discourse, among other things—and is moreover an especially dubious metric for evaluating human action, in no small part because it’s intrinsically regressive (something I think even its believers and adherents would admit is the case). Even mostly agreeing with Rousseau—that self-interest alone cannot account for the cooperative condition that makes a human "human," and that it cannot be disentangled from the "natural repugnance to seeing any sentient Being, and especially any being like ourselves, perish or suffer"—I nonetheless question the validity of arguing that these principles exist or existed as "principles prior to reason" (though at least Rousseau, to his credit, acknowledges how difficult an endeavor it is to perform "experiments […] to know natural man").

Furthermore—and you may notice that my reading of Hobbes is heavily inflected with Rousseau—"force does not make right," and thus the civil state—which, following Aristotle, I hold to be commensurate with the human’s natural state—applies itself to "substituting justice for instinct". It is in this spirit that I reject bellicosity for all against all as an accurate description of the human condition, concurring again with Rousseau: "the state of war, far from being natural to man, is born of peace, or at least the precautions men have taken to secure lasting peace."

Who do you subscribe to closest, in terms of political philosophy?

As for my personal predilections: a single subscription would be difficult for me to claim. If, in terms of practical political philosophy, my mindset were imagined a piece of meat, I guess you could call it an Aristotelian cut with significant Machiavellian republican marbling—non-trivially seasoned with notions like Tocqueville’s skepticism of democracy (at least qua its American formulation), Foucault’s discomfort with the modes of surveillance and incarceration deployed by contemporary institutions as the mechanical foundations of their authority, and Rousseau's somewhat quixotic notion that the spirit of the Social Contract is to force people to be free—all roasted over a nice, heaping Platonic pyre.

And I would’ve cited Plato—and the Republic, Protagoras, and Phaedo specifically—but it’s my reading that he doesn’t so much as supply an answer (as Aristotle attempts in Politics), as asserts a global strategy for thinking: the imperative of both questioning and being mindful of context. Or, as Eliot (care of Dante) might say: sovegna vos—which probably comes as close to a personal credo as I could get.
 
I'm trying to say that guns aren't the issue. Bad people are the issue. Most of the gun violence happens in major cities in (shockingly) gun-free zones. I saw an interesting stat the other day (though I haven't fact-checked it).

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:

Number of States won by:

Obama: 19

Romney: 29

Square miles of land won by:

Obama: 580,000

Romney: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by:

Obama: 127 million

Romney: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:

Obama: 13.2

Romney: 2.1

I know Joe Olson (not well) and he's pretty much a nut.

But sturg, the main problem with Olson's analysis (and it's nothing new--Bill Bishop did the same thing in "The Big Sort") is that it undercuts the system as set up by the Founding Fathers (and subsequently changed in some instances through amendments to the US Constitution). There's nothing diabolical going on here.
 
Yeah... it's always a better idea to hide under chairs and call 991 - you know, people with guns - to stop the madness.

It's not solely about guns here. It's about having training to deal with a situation that is fairly complex. People firing guns randomly in a chaotic situation just doesn't bode well for anyone.
 
The focus should be taking guns out of the hands of people that shouldn't have them. Not limiting the supply of guns, which simply drives up prices and makes guns purchased on the street more prevalent.

Can't wait for Obama to say that, and then have the NRA's translator convey that to the American public as Obama wants to take everyone's guns and enslave humanity, Nazi-Germany style.
 
It's not solely about guns here. It's about having training to deal with a situation that is fairly complex. People firing guns randomly in a chaotic situation just doesn't bode well for anyone.

But you missed the point entirely 50.

If everyone in the theater were armed and had a gun, then Holmes wouldn't have been able to kill them. Because having a gun means you're not going to die. And everyone else around you having a gun means nobody is going to die except the bad guy.

See how simple that was?

All you have to do is what Peter did in the video. Just have a gun and tell the bad guy to stop it and he will.
 
I'm trying to say that guns aren't the issue. Bad people are the issue. Most of the gun violence happens in major cities in (shockingly) gun-free zones. I saw an interesting stat the other day (though I haven't fact-checked it).

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:

Number of States won by:

Obama: 19

Romney: 29

Square miles of land won by:

Obama: 580,000

Romney: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by:

Obama: 127 million

Romney: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:

Obama: 13.2

Romney: 2.1

This basically points out that cities (densely populated) voted democrat, while country states (not as densely populated) voted republican. Obama won popular and electoral, so what's your point?
 
If someone is pointing a gun at you and intends to fire it, would you rather have a gun or not?

Perhaps by the time I go for the gun, they get nervous and pull the trigger accidentally and I'm dead anyhow.

Unless you want me to do some quick draw wild wild west type of stuff.
 
If someone is pointing a gun at you and intends to fire it, would you rather have a gun or not?

If I am sitting in a theater watching a movie and someone comes barging in with an automatic weapon showering the place with bullets, I don't think that me or everyone else in the theater having a gun is going to make much, if any, difference.
 
Perhaps by the time I go for the gun, they get nervous and pull the trigger accidentally and I'm dead anyhow.

Unless you want me to do some quick draw wild wild west type of stuff.

Or teach everyone to use guns and eventually give them one when they're old enough. This way, whenever an argument or fight breaks out, a gun will be more readily available.

The whole notion that "if everyone had a gun, people would think before pulling theirs out and shooting someone!" is so silly. It would make guns more prevalent in common, little disagreements. More people having guns is an inherently bad thing. Guns in general are in inherently bad. And yes, it's because people are people. But people are never going to stop being people.
 
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