Official 2017 Trade Deadilne Thread

gilesfan said:
I really don't care who he gets replaced with. The team isn't competing seriously next year and he is too old to be an asset when the team is ready to compete. He's the perfect example of selling high.
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I disagree. I think the Braves absolutely intend on competing next year, and unlike the fugazi this year, I think they can.
 
on Heyman
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yanks remain the strong favorite for sonny gray. but braves are at least one other team that's still in contact with oakland.
 
CyYoung31 said:
I disagree. I think the Braves absolutely intend on competing next year, and unlike the fugazi this year, I think they can.
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Even if you do believe this, there is a great chance Flowers returns back to his 90 wRC+ next year (albeit with good defensive skills that will slowly erode away). Valuable? Sure, but maybe not as much as you could get right now at his peak.
 
gilesfan said:
Even if you do believe this, there is a great chance Flowers returns back to his 90 wRC+ next year (albeit with good defensive skills that will slowly erode away). Valuable? Sure, but maybe not as much as you could get right now at his peak.
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Sure, but given the complete lack of viable Catchers in the upper levels you have to figure Flowers is one of those pieces that Coppy's talking about when he says we're "past the stage of moving MLB players for prospects" in the rebuild. If Flowers is dealt, who's a viable option next year. Extend Suzuki? Not likely. Overpay for Lucroy coming off his worst season ever? Not likely. I certainly won't disagree that Flowers ought to bring a nice return if he's moved, but doing so likely downgrades the position for awhile.
 
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clvclv said:
Sure, but given the complete lack of viable Catchers in the upper levels you have to figure Flowers is one of those pieces that Coppy's talking about when he says we're "past the stage of moving MLB players for prospects" in the rebuild. If Flowers is dealt, who's a viable option next year. Extend Suzuki? Not likely. Overpay for Lucroy coming off his worst season ever? Not likely. I certainly won't disagree that Flowers ought to bring a nice return if he's moved, but doing so likely downgrades the position for awhile.
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Hard to argue with this take.
 
gilesfan said:
I really don't care who he gets replaced with. The team isn't competing seriously next year and he is too old to be an asset when the team is ready to compete. He's the perfect example of selling high.
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The problem with this is, if you keep taking this approach, you're always hurting your ability to compete, thus tempting you to kick the can down the road even further.

We won't get a ton for Flowers right now, even with his play this year. You'd get a decent return, but nothing that would make a serious impact in our system. And there's a chance you end up better than projected next year with the number of young guys. If Acuna and Albies are pretty good right away, if Dansby returns and hits solidly, if Folty and Newcomb pitch well, then suddenly you're looking at a pretty good team. It would be a bummer to end up with a team that might be able to make a run at the WC and then realize you traded a decent catcher for a meh return and now are stuck with nothing of value there and little way to go get one.

The best option is to keep Flowers around for next year, see how he does, and if his dip in K rate is for real, try to add an extra year or two onto his deal.
 
smootness said:
The problem with this is, if you keep taking this approach, you're always hurting your ability to compete, thus tempting you to kick the can down the road even further.

We won't get a ton for Flowers right now, even with his play this year. You'd get a decent return, but nothing that would make a serious impact in our system. And there's a chance you end up better than projected next year with the number of young guys. If Acuna and Albies are pretty good right away, if Dansby returns and hits solidly, if Folty and Newcomb pitch well, then suddenly you're looking at a pretty good team. It would be a bummer to end up with a team that might be able to make a run at the WC and then realize you traded a decent catcher for a meh return and now are stuck with nothing of value there and little way to go get one.

The best option is to keep Flowers around for next year, see how he does, and if his dip in K rate is for real, try to add an extra year or two onto his deal.
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I believe in kicking the can down the road until you are legitimately ready to be in consideration to compete in the playoffs. We are not at that point this year or next year, the talent on the team is too green. Flower is at a .367 BABIP for a slow catcher, it's not going to continue. His power is right at career averages....his Ks are down and walk rates up slightly. One, his average stabilizes, you are still looking at a average hitter (at best). Obviously, the return would have to be solid. The problem is everyone loves the idea of selling high.....until it gets to that point and then they want to wait another year to see "if it's real," and you lose the value you had.

There are creative ways to obtain a catcher that will be around when the team is ready to compete. The Dodgers going to keep both catchers that are playing great? We have plenty of ammo to offer them to obtain a longer term catcher.
 
smootness said:
The problem with this is, if you keep taking this approach, you're always hurting your ability to compete, thus tempting you to kick the can down the road even further.

We won't get a ton for Flowers right now, even with his play this year. You'd get a decent return, but nothing that would make a serious impact in our system. And there's a chance you end up better than projected next year with the number of young guys. If Acuna and Albies are pretty good right away, if Dansby returns and hits solidly, if Folty and Newcomb pitch well, then suddenly you're looking at a pretty good team. It would be a bummer to end up with a team that might be able to make a run at the WC and then realize you traded a decent catcher for a meh return and now are stuck with nothing of value there and little way to go get one.

The best option is to keep Flowers around for next year, see how he does, and if his dip in K rate is for real, try to add an extra year or two onto his deal.
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That is a ton of Ifs. What is really the best case scenario for Acuan as a 20 year old rookie? .800 OPS is super optimistic. Albies.....750? There were crazy optimistic expectations for Dansby out of the gate and he showed why it is important to show caution. Newcomb has a 4.25 FIP, Folty at 4.54, and Teheran at 5.74. While there is reason to believe these guys are going to improve, how much improvement is needed to compete when they are the top 3 starters on the staff?

Take your lumps and shoot for 2019/2020
 
gilesfan said:
That is a ton of Ifs. What is really the best case scenario for Acuan as a 20 year old rookie? .800 OPS is super optimistic. Albies.....750? There were crazy optimistic expectations for Dansby out of the gate and he showed why it is important to show caution. Newcomb has a 4.25 FIP, Folty at 4.54, and Teheran at 5.74. While there is reason to believe these guys are going to improve, how much improvement is needed to compete when they are the top 3 starters on the staff?

Take your lumps and shoot for 2019/2020
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I don't really disagree with much of what you're saying. I just think the value of keeping Flowers around is better than what you'll get if you deal him. I don't at all think this is a 'if you can get anything for him while his value is high, it's better than nothing' scenario. I get that by keeping him you're pretty much ensuring you won't be able to sell high on him. But I'm fine with that in his case.

And his career BABIP is .330, he had a .366 BABIP last year. It will likely come down some, but it's not drastically above his norms. The primary factor in his offensive surge is the K rate dropping a ton. It had shown signs of coming down the last couple years, and now it has plunged. If that is real improvement, then he should be a quality offensive catcher for another 2-3 years, and his pitch framing is worth enough to make him a valuable defensive guy for that time period as well.

I think there is a chance we put a decent team on the field next year, one that can project to something around 85 wins, and I think we both agree 2019 could be better still, in true 'competing' territory. If that's the case, I like the idea of keeping him around for that unless we get more than I believe he's worth on the trade market.
 
smootness said:
I don't really disagree with much of what you're saying. I just think the value of keeping Flowers around is better than what you'll get if you deal him. I don't at all think this is a 'if you can get anything for him while his value is high, it's better than nothing' scenario. I get that by keeping him you're pretty much ensuring you won't be able to sell high on him. But I'm fine with that in his case.

And his career BABIP is .330, he had a .366 BABIP last year. It will likely come down some, but it's not drastically above his norms. The primary factor in his offensive surge is the K rate dropping a ton. It had shown signs of coming down the last couple years, and now it has plunged. If that is real improvement, then he should be a quality offensive catcher for another 2-3 years, and his pitch framing is worth enough to make him a valuable defensive guy for that time period as well.

I think there is a chance we put a decent team on the field next year, one that can project to something around 85 wins, and I think we both agree 2019 could be better still, in true 'competing' territory. If that's the case, I like the idea of keeping him around for that unless we get more than I believe he's worth on the trade market.
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my biggest argument for keeping Flowers is the investment and pitching and having a vet catcher who is a good framer.

That's why I think Coppy deserves to be called an idiot if he can't do 1 of these two things:

1. Trade Flowers for a big return

2. Rip up the extension for next year and double Flowers' salary in exchange for a couple of team options

Having Flowers play for 4 million on next year's team and either being bad or getting a big deal somewhere else is stupid.

We did ok with Suzuki. Realmuto is going to become available eventually.
 
gilesfan said:
That is a ton of Ifs. What is really the best case scenario for Acuan as a 20 year old rookie? .800 OPS is super optimistic. Albies.....750? There were crazy optimistic expectations for Dansby out of the gate and he showed why it is important to show caution. Newcomb has a 4.25 FIP, Folty at 4.54, and Teheran at 5.74. While there is reason to believe these guys are going to improve, how much improvement is needed to compete when they are the top 3 starters on the staff?

Take your lumps and shoot for 2019/2020
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This should be the reason to keep Flowers, no??? For all the regression you're projecting with his bat, he's still the best - or one of the best - framers out there, right? How much improvement should be realistically expected from a staff that's already benefiting a huge amount from having him behind the plate? Take him away from the Pitchers and their numbers suffer as well, don't they?
 
Rumblings being mentioned on XM are a Sheffield, Florial or Mateo (some scouts predicting Mateo shifts to CF), plus package for Gray. If that is the case, it's at least understandable that we're still being talked about as still "in". If the Yankees aren't willing to go higher, an Anderson, Pache, Wentz offer would conceivably be better - especially if Beane likes the recent helium for Wentz.
 
clvclv said:
This should be the reason to keep Flowers, no??? For all the regression you're projecting with his bat, he's still the best - or one of the best - framers out there, right? How much improvement should be realistically expected from a staff that's already benefiting a huge amount from having him behind the plate? Take him away from the Pitchers and their numbers suffer as well, don't they?
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I mean, how much worse can the pitching staff really get?
 
clvclv said:
Rumblings being mentioned on XM are a Sheffield, Florial or Mateo (some scouts predicting Mateo shifts to CF), plus package for Gray. If that is the case, it's at least understandable that we're still being talked about as still "in". If the Yankees aren't willing to go higher, an Anderson, Pache, Wentz offer would conceivably be better - especially if Beane likes the recent helium for Wentz.
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I'd be ok giving up Pache and Wentz, but not if you also add Anderson on top of that.
 
Do not trade for Gray.

I wouldn't trade Flowers. I don't think we would get a lot for him and he is important to the handling of our young pitchers. Best pitch framer in the game.
 
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