Official 2022 Offseason Moves Thread

The Chosen One said:
He's already dealt with some injuries already, so that's not a good indicator.

And the fact he's playing one of the top 3 positions where bodies break down (CF and C being the others), then it's certainly not a recipe for success.
Click to expand...

I think the thing with bodies breaking down is less positions and more with size.

It's hard to compare because people of size are all different. Look at Mark Teixeira. He isn't as big as freeman, but he played some 3B. He was basically done being an effective consistently by 32.

To me Freeman's long term efficacy comes down to the DH. I think he could easily have a Jim Thome finale to his career. But Thome was basically a DH post 34,
 
zitothebrave said:
I think the thing with bodies breaking down is less positions and more with size.

It's hard to compare because people of size are all different. Look at Mark Teixeira. He isn't as big as freeman, but he played some 3B. He was basically done being an effective consistently by 32.

To me Freeman's long term efficacy comes down to the DH. I think he could easily have a Jim Thome finale to his career. But Thome was basically a DH post 34,
Click to expand...

There isn’t a big difference between 6’3 225 and 6’5 220.

I agree with the DH angle. To me, you have Ozuna play out his contract at mainly DH and after those 3 years, Freddie slides in for his last 3 years and you go out and get a 1B via trade or draft in the next 2-3 years.
 
50PoundHead said:
Because they need pitching more than anything. I think Anderson (who is under a similar level of control as Reynolds) and Pache would come close to getting a Reynolds deal done. You could try Soroka, Pache, and Contreras and a throw-in. I doubt something like Pache, Contreras, Wright, and Tarnok even merits the Pirates picking up the phone.

I've never said the Pirates are on the brink of contention (which would insinuate 2022 or 2023), but they are closer than a lot of people think and I think they will be contenders while Reynolds is under team control. I think that's where those here who believe we have the parts to obtain Reynolds get it wrong.
Click to expand...

Ynoa could be an interesting piece. He got a lot of hype this season pre-injury.
 
zitothebrave said:
I think the thing with bodies breaking down is less positions and more with size.

It's hard to compare because people of size are all different. Look at Mark Teixeira. He isn't as big as freeman, but he played some 3B. He was basically done being an effective consistently by 32.

To me Freeman's long term efficacy comes down to the DH. I think he could easily have a Jim Thome finale to his career. But Thome was basically a DH post 34,
Click to expand...

That's what I think is causing the difference between the two sides. Freeman's reps look at it as "look - the DH is coming and Ozuna will be off your books in three years, so you can shift Freddie to DH if you need to at that point". There are problems with that line of thinking though...

1.) I still don't think AA wants a full-time DH because it costs you flexibility. If they could get out from under Ozuna they would, but they're willing to take the hit and let him play defense every-so-often if it allows them to give somebody else a day off without taking their bat out of the lineup. I honestly think this is why they preferred Ozuna over Cruz when he was signed.

2.) If Freddie becomes a defensive liability when he turns 34 like Thome and Cabrera (and arguably Pujols as well), what do you do when you have both he and Ozuna are on the roster and neither can play defense? Platoon them at DH? That would be a $48 million platoon in 2024.

3.) If his bat is still effective as long as Pujols' was AND he can still play passable defense that long, you're still left with a $30 million DH for three seasons. That would make him the third one of those in MLB history. How are those Cabrera and Stanton deals working out - even with the DH? Stanton had a "great" year last year, but he still was only able to give the Yankees 139 games when they played him as a DH almost exclusively. He played in the OF 26 times and got banged up enough doing that that he missed 33 games. He's a year younger than Freeman - is it wrong to expect to see Freddie start missing more games, especially if he continues to play defense? Of course not, but even DHs get quad strains, hamstring pulls, oblique strains, etc.. If Freeman somehow dodges those, he'll be the first person to ever beat Father Time.


The longer this goes on, the worse Alex' options look. Rizzo's the same age as Freddie and is already in decline, and Olson's going to cost a haul. If he wants to preserve the organizational depth in the event they want to trade for an OF, it almost feels like he has no choice other than to cave and give Freddie what he wants and cross his fingers hoping he stays healthy enough to continue playing 1B for at least the first three years of the deal. I realize Bryant's still out there and you could add him and shift Riley to 1B, but that makes you awfully right-handed. Schwarber doesn't really fit anywhere defensively, and there are probably too many questions about Conforto to try signing him for LF and Rizzo for 1B.
 
Last edited:
bravesfanMatt said:
Do we really want a 35 year old DH at 30 mil per?
Click to expand...

Nope, but that’s part of the price of having a 32 year old 1B for $30M posting 5+ wins right now. It’s one of the quintessential win now moves.

Trading prospects for 2 years of Olson is the other quintessential win now move.

The choice becomes which moves hurts the future less. If the As want prospects the Braves don’t like, the Olson move wins. If the Braves have some data suggesting Freeman will age well, signing him long term wins. Problem is, the answer is probably somewhere in that middle ground, which makes this a horribly difficult problem.

This decision at 1B will probably be the one of the main factors in when the contention window closes.
 
Leave Duvall in CF for 2022 with Heredia as backup. Sign Rosario (or Soler) for LF/part time DH (prefer a LHer). Sign Rodon 1/22M. Sign Colin Moran. Now you get to keep all the worthless prospects, all the developing prospects and still have money for the deadline if needed.
 
First let me say this is not a vote of confidence that we should sign Freeman late into his 30's. I just wanted to bring up a point in general to consider. When we discuss players breaking down or declining as they get older, should we also factor in the intangible of "desire to keep being great"? For example, who's to say that Pujols and Cabrera didn't have the mindset that they really didn't feel like staying in as great of shape anymore, and already knew they had guaranteed money, so why keep trying as hard to keep pushing it?

Obviously we have no idea if Freddie will do the same, or if any of this even matters. But as you get older, it's probably natural to not want to work as hard, especially once you've already locked up that contract.
 
Carp said:
And Tex didn't make a difference for us.

It doesn't matter what any of those players did. The value of what we traded away was astronomical at the time. Certainly that value could have been better spent on a more controllable player and position of actual need, namely starting pitching. That package would have easily netted us Dan Haren in the off-season and we'd have been in significantly better shape long term.
Click to expand...

.404/.615/1.020
.390/.512/.902

With the best defense in baseball and someone to protect Chipper isn’t doing nothing.

Braves knew something people didn’t about the bums that were traded away and got the biggest impact bat for a year and a half.
 
NYCBrave said:
First let me say this is not a vote of confidence that we should sign Freeman late into his 30's. I just wanted to bring up a point in general to consider. When we discuss players breaking down or declining as they get older, should we also factor in the intangible of "desire to keep being great"? For example, who's to say that Pujols and Cabrera didn't have the mindset that they really didn't feel like staying in as great of shape anymore, and already knew they had guaranteed money, so why keep trying as hard to keep pushing it?

Obviously we have no idea if Freddie will do the same, or if any of this even matters. But as you get older, it's probably natural to not want to work as hard, especially once you've already locked up that contract.
Click to expand...

The whole issue with "intangibles" is that they aren't tangible, so you can't factor them in.
 
Sheffield10 said:
.404/.615/1.020
.390/.512/.902

With the best defense in baseball and someone to protect Chipper isn’t doing nothing.

Braves knew something people didn’t about the bums that were traded away and got the biggest impact bat for a year and a half.
Click to expand...

Both sides can be right regarding the Teixeira deal. I thought the acquisition cost was too high and we got next to nothing when we unloaded him a year later, but it's not Teixeira's fault the Braves didn't do well when he was wearing our uniform. The guy was golden for us. I thought he was overrated until I watched him more closely after the Braves obtained him. He was a great baseball player.
 
There are things to like and dislike about the Tex deal, but how good of a player he was isn’t one of them. It’s also a bit disingenuous to call the acquisition price too high when we didn’t really have a good way to value prospects back then, so the fact they turned into nothing should speak pretty loudly about the Braves ability to value them at the time.

It’s ok to think the Braves should have focused on pitching instead of adding more offense.

It’s also ok to think getting kotchman as the centerpiece for trading Tex away was a terrible choice.

But the dude was a stud for the Braves, and nothing that went wrong was any fault of his.
 
NYCBrave said:
First let me say this is not a vote of confidence that we should sign Freeman late into his 30's. I just wanted to bring up a point in general to consider. When we discuss players breaking down or declining as they get older, should we also factor in the intangible of "desire to keep being great"? For example, who's to say that Pujols and Cabrera didn't have the mindset that they really didn't feel like staying in as great of shape anymore, and already knew they had guaranteed money, so why keep trying as hard to keep pushing it?

Obviously we have no idea if Freddie will do the same, or if any of this even matters. But as you get older, it's probably natural to not want to work as hard, especially once you've already locked up that contract.
Click to expand...

I think Freddie having been consistently fit is a positive factor in predicting his longevity.

And he's been relatively healthy.

But you just don't know when a guy is going to have an injury that starts the chain reaction of general bad health.

The only issue I see in not signing him is that you'll be chasing the position for awhile. Either paying money or prospects for options not as good probably.

The run between McGriff and Freeman was never ideal.
 
Enscheff said:
There are things to like and dislike about the Tex deal, but how good of a player he was isn’t one of them. It’s also a bit disingenuous to call the acquisition price too high when we didn’t really have a good way to value prospects back then, so the fact they turned into nothing should speak pretty loudly about the Braves ability to value them at the time.

It’s ok to think the Braves should have focused on pitching instead of adding more offense.

It’s also ok to think getting kotchman as the centerpiece for trading Tex away was a terrible choice.

But the dude was a stud for the Braves, and nothing that went wrong was any fault of his.
Click to expand...

Tex was everything they could have asked him to be.

It was an odd flex. No doubt. I don't think they really gave up that much really. Some guys that had some useful years of control plus a pretty solid SS. That's about it.
 
Andrus never really become a great hitter, but he has racked up 30 WAR in his career -- that's pretty darn good, and it's a lot to trade away for a year and a half of Teixeira and however much Ron Mahay we got. Feliz burned out pretty quickly, but he did pick up eight WAR for the Rangers before losing about a win with sub-replacement pitching over the last few years. Again, still a useful piece. And that's without taking into account the fringe-y contributions of Saltalamacchia and Harrison.
 
MadduxFanII said:
Andrus never really become a great hitter, but he has racked up 30 WAR in his career -- that's pretty darn good, and it's a lot to trade away for a year and a half of Teixeira and however much Ron Mahay we got. Feliz burned out pretty quickly, but he did pick up eight WAR for the Rangers before losing about a win with sub-replacement pitching over the last few years. Again, still a useful piece. And that's without taking into account the fringe-y contributions of Saltalamacchia and Harrison.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, but let me just point out that Yunel Escobar put up nearly as much career WAR as Andrus has, and Yunel last played in 2017.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top