Peraza

[yeezus]

Wentz wasn't traded for. He was simply drafted with that pick that we picked up. That's like complaining about the Kotchman/Tex trade because the pick the Angels got for Tex was used for Trout. Fact is the Braves wasted the vale of a 20ish prospect and a good controllable lefty starter and got nothing significant in return. They gambled on HO and got burned horribly.

Meh, not exactly. We explicitly traded for the Wentz pick; LAA just got the pick when Tex walked. The Trout pick didn't get taken away from Atlanta the way the Wentz pick was taken from the Dodgers. I'd say they're pretty different.

 

[thewupk]

Meh, not exactly. We explicitly traded for the Wentz pick; LAA just got the pick when Tex walked. The Trout pick didn't get taken away from Atlanta the way the Wentz pick was taken from the Dodgers. I'd say they're pretty different.

I would say the draft pick did get taken away from the Braves. Because they knew there was going to be one attached to Tex going somewhere else in FA.

 

[Preacher]

I've always thought that when a trade involves a draft pick, that the best way to evaluate that part is the expected value of the pick not the best or worst case scenario.

Why not actually look at who we acquired, we traded for a pick that became Joey Wentz.

We don't look back and evaluate the trade based on Hector Olivera's expected value, we evaluate it based on the fact that he was even worse than imagined and had off-field issues.

 

[Preacher]

Wentz wasn't traded for. He was simply drafted with that pick that we picked up. That's like complaining about the Kotchman/Tex trade because the pick the Angels got for Tex was used for Trout. Fact is the Braves wasted the vale of a 20ish prospect and a good controllable lefty starter and got nothing significant in return. They gambled on HO and got burned horribly.

Nobody is arguing that it was a good deal.

You said "We should have gotten a useful piece for trading what we did."

I'd simply argue that Joey Wentz is a pretty damn useful piece. If you want to argue that we only acquired the pick and not Joey Wentz..... fine..... but you're really getting into semantics there.

 

[weso1]

Not a good trade. But certainly not anywhere near the Swanson deal.

It's like Coppy got blind drunk and fell in love with an old road whore at the bar and all his friends watched him get pulled upstairs. Even though she was relatively cheap and it turned out that there was no long term effects of the gift that kept on giving, it's not something you want to discuss ever again.

Yeah, you could argue it's the 2nd worst trade in the past couple of years, but it's still light years behind the crap sandwich of a trade the Dbacks made. Hell, I think Inciarte might put up more WAR in his career by himself than the entire group of players we sent to the Dodgers.

 

[Chico]

The pick is how the trade got started...or re-started. That's what Coppy wanted more than anything and where he went wrong. I think the Dodgers realized how much he wanted the pick.

 

[thewupk]

Nobody is arguing that it was a good deal.

You said "We should have gotten a useful piece for trading what we did."

I'd simply argue that Joey Wentz is a pretty damn useful piece. If you want to argue that we only acquired the pick and not Joey Wentz..... fine..... but you're really getting into semantics there.

And I would say let's wait before a handful of starts to claim Joey Wentz is a damn useful piece. The Braves are currently rebuilding. Wood and Peraza should of been traded for someone a year or two out that could have fit a position of need. Even if HO worked out he was a win now move.

 

[nsacpi]

Why not actually look at who we acquired, we traded for a pick that became Joey Wentz.

We don't look back and evaluate the trade based on Hector Olivera's expected value, we evaluate it based on the fact that he was even worse than imagined and had off-field issues.

Fair enough. Lets see how Wentz turns out.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

And I would say let's wait before a handful of starts to claim Joey Wentz is a damn useful piece. The Braves are currently rebuilding. Wood and Peraza should of been traded for someone a year or two out that could have fit a position of need. Even if HO worked out he was a win now move.

this is my take as well. Many people evaluate that trade as Wood and Jose had more value at the time of the trade but HO BECAME a dumpster fire and then Kemp compounded. However, we need to keep apples to apples.. we can't say judge the trade on what Jose and Alex at time of trade and not the same for HO. HO was valuable.. he hit well in the minors (SSS) with Dodgers, Paco didn't need TJS and we got a pick.

But to your point.. the HO target was a bad move. the blurry line between competing and rebuilding is sometimes a head scratcher.

 

[Preacher]

And I would say let's wait before a handful of starts to claim Joey Wentz is a damn useful piece. The Braves are currently rebuilding. Wood and Peraza should of been traded for someone a year or two out that could have fit a position of need. Even if HO worked out he was a win now move.

You don't have to wait a handful of starts to call Joey Wentz a useful piece.

He's obviously not useful to the MLB club right now, but he's clearly a useful piece in the bigger picture, we could trade him right now for something if we really wanted to. A lot of his value is obviously tied into his upside and if he's able to reach that upside, but he's clearly a useful piece that was acquired in that trade. To deny that is just being stubborn.

 

[thewupk]

You don't have to wait a handful of starts to call Joey Wentz a useful piece.

He's obviously not useful to the MLB club right now, but he's clearly a useful piece in the bigger picture, we could trade him right now for something if we really wanted to. A lot of his value is obviously tied into his upside and if he's able to reach that upside, but he's clearly a useful piece that was acquired in that trade. To deny that is just being stubborn.

He has value just as anybody else we would have acquired at that spot. But at this point it's still a lottery ticket.

 

[Chico]

You don't have to wait a handful of starts to call Joey Wentz a useful piece.

He's obviously not useful to the MLB club right now, but he's clearly a useful piece in the bigger picture, we could trade him right now for something if we really wanted to. A lot of his value is obviously tied into his upside and if he's able to reach that upside, but he's clearly a useful piece that was acquired in that trade. To deny that is just being stubborn.

Yes, he definitely has value right now. There would be 29 teams interested in acquiring him this winter if we decided to put him on the block.

 

[gilesfan]

this is my take as well. Many people evaluate that trade as Wood and Jose had more value at the time of the trade but HO BECAME a dumpster fire and then Kemp compounded. However, we need to keep apples to apples.. we can't say judge the trade on what Jose and Alex at time of trade and not the same for HO. HO was valuable.. he hit well in the minors (SSS) with Dodgers, Paco didn't need TJS and we got a pick.

But to your point.. the HO target was a bad move. the blurry line between competing and rebuilding is sometimes a head scratcher.

Anyone with half a brain that wasn't a braves blind homer on this board knew the addition of HO was a bad one. Go read the thread, it's not like it is a shock that HO didn't work out. He wasn't even hitting all that well in the minors as a 30 year old that was supposed to be ready.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

Anyone with half a brain that wasn't a braves blind homer on this board knew the addition of HO was a bad one. Go read the thread, it's not like it is a shock that HO didn't work out. He wasn't even hitting all that well in the minors as a 30 year old that was supposed to be ready.

which is exactly what I said. But many have judged this trade on what has happened since, but only for HO. Wood and Jose always goes back to the same argument 'There value at the time of the trade'... You can't say that and not look at HO value (regardless of how he fit for the Braves) at the time of the trade. I didn't like the trade because he didn't fit our time frame.. but at the time of the trade, he had value as well.

Also, you can do the research, but HO was hitting over .300 and OPSing over .800 in the Dodgers minor league system. in AAA Okl. he had a .968 OPS (only 31 abs) and a .855 in AA..

 

[Russ2dollas]

Anyone with half a brain that wasn't a braves blind homer on this board knew the addition of HO was a bad one. Go read the thread, it's not like it is a shock that HO didn't work out. He wasn't even hitting all that well in the minors as a 30 year old that was supposed to be ready.

agree 100%.

The only thing I'd add is that the Braves have had super awful luck and/or super awful evaluation on some big moves lately. Lots of teams spend too much on free agents and have them disappoint late or even disappoint early. I'm talking about a situation like D Lowe where he was good for 2/4 years. But we've just had a string of guys that were AWFUL from day 1.
KK
Uggla-had some moments
BJ
Olivera
Aybar

 

[gilesfan]

which is exactly what I said. But many have judged this trade on what has happened since, but only for HO. Wood and Jose always goes back to the same argument 'There value at the time of the trade'... You can't say that and not look at HO value (regardless of how he fit for the Braves) at the time of the trade. I didn't like the trade because he didn't fit our time frame.. but at the time of the trade, he had value as well.

Also, you can do the research, but HO was hitting over .300 and OPSing over .800 in the Dodgers minor league system. in AAA Okl. he had a .968 OPS (only 31 abs) and a .855 in AA..

Thats not really impressive for a 30 year old in an extreme hitting environment. How should a decent 30 year old hit in a hitter friendly AA?

I was talking about the value of Wood/Peraza at the time.

 

[yeezus]

Thats not really impressive for a 30 year old in an extreme hitting environment. How should a decent 30 year old hit in a hitter friendly AA?

HO also wasn't your typical 30 year old minor leaguer.

 

[thewupk]

agree 100%.

The only thing I'd add is that the Braves have had super awful luck and/or super awful evaluation on some big moves lately. Lots of teams spend too much on free agents and have them disappoint late or even disappoint early. I'm talking about a situation like D Lowe where he was good for 2/4 years. But we've just had a string of guys that were AWFUL from day 1.

KK

Uggla-had some moments

BJ

Olivera

Aybar

You can argue Uggla was good for the trade portion of that deal. But his years of the extension were horrible.

 

[Southcack77]

I've always thought that when a trade involves a draft pick, that the best way to evaluate that part is the expected value of the pick not the best or worst case scenario.

In this situation, it seems not quite accurate to count the expected value since the Braves strategy was to acquire bonus money to exceed the expected value of their picks. It'll be pretty hard to calculate exactly how much value the pick carried since it is more than just Wentz, it is probably to some degree Muller as well. Or the other million dollar bonus kid down the line.

I don't quite understand why the drum needs to be banged so often. The Braves missed on Oliveira. They said they got it wrong and wish they had it back.

What more do you want from them other than to reverse time?

I'm sure if you told the Braves that Oliveira would end up being suspended for domestic violence, apparently be a bad clubhouse guy, and not hit, they'd have made a different trade, but I personally don't think you can be right every time and I don't really mind that they traded Peraza or Wood.

 

[Southcack77]

Yeah, you could argue it's the 2nd worst trade in the past couple of years, but it's still light years behind the crap sandwich of a trade the Dbacks made. Hell, I think Inciarte might put up more WAR in his career by himself than the entire group of players we sent to the Dodgers.

I'm not sure many people outside of Atlanta think about his trade much, because I'm not sure anyone else particularly felt that Wood or Peraza were all that good. The Dodgers got little enough out of it.