One of my biggest worries with a worldview like Shapiro’s is that it ignores the consequence of treating transgender people at “others” in a society. The suicide attempt rate skyrockets with instances of harassment and abuse. While I’m sure that’s not unique to transgender people, I still worry about increased exposure to such things. Saying things along the lines of “I shouldn’t have to recognize you as your identified gender” when you have a following as large as Shapiro’s reinforces the idea that transgender people are a societal ill in some way. There’s no way that can’t cause more harm than good.
Political Correctness
- Thread starter sturg33
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One of my biggest worries with a worldview like Shapiro’s is that it ignores the consequence of treating transgender people at “others” in a society. The suicide attempt rate skyrockets with instances of harassment and abuse. While I’m sure that’s not unique to transgender people, I still worry about increased exposure to such things. Saying things along the lines of “I shouldn’t have to recognize you as your identified gender” when you have a following as large as Shapiro’s reinforces the idea that transgender people are a societal ill in some way. There’s no way that can’t cause more harm than good.
BeanieAntics
Arbitration Eligible
Shapiro doesn't advocate for harassment and abuse. He advocates not changing our view of biology to cater to a small segment of society who wish to deviate from what we know about biology. He advocates telling the truth as he sees it. And the truth is that a man who says he is a woman is still a biological man. I've never heard him advocate for treating transgender individuals as "others" or anything like that. I have heard him say that we should treat it as a serious psychological condition, rather than reinforcing it and normalizing it. He sees it as a psychological condition akin to schizophrenia or bipolarism. And the insanely high suicide attempt rates of the transgender community does back up that idea to some degree. 50pound does make a good point, that its possibly a chicken/egg situation, but across the board transgenderism comes with a ton of psychological problems regardless of which manifests itself first.
Also, do you have any evidence that suicidality skyrockets with degrees of harassment and abuse among transgenders? I've read conflicting studies on that. Some studies suggest that you are right and some suggest that you are wrong, but I have found some issues with the former studies' methodology. Some of them aren't longitudinal and they only account for rates over a short period of time, while the ones that account for the lifetime rates seem to suggest little correlation. I could be wrong, and there could be a study with solid methodology that suggests that the treatment of transgender individuals is directly linked to their rate of suicide or suicide attempts, but I haven't seen that study. And even if that study exists, that would still point to something being unique about transgenders. As Shapiro points out, there are a bunch of other seemingly marginalized, harassed, and bullied groups that show suicide rates BELOW that of the general population. So once again, we seem to be missing some sort of variable when it comes to transgenders and why they try to kill themselves so much.
The variable is that trangenderism is a mental illness while the other bullied groups aren’t. You’ll see more suicides in subjects classified as mentally ill than you will perfectly happy people.
SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- California has become the first state to require publicly traded companies to include women on their boards of directors, one of a series of laws boosting or protecting women that Gov. Jerry Brown signed Sunday.
The measure requires at least one female director on the board of each California-based public corporation by the end of next year. Companies would need up to three female directors by the end of 2021, depending on the number of board seats.
The Democratic governor referenced the objections and legal concerns that the law has raised. The California Chamber of Commerce has said the policy will be difficult for companies to implement and violates constitutional prohibitions against discrimination.
"I don't minimize the potential flaws that indeed may prove fatal to its ultimate implementation," Brown wrote in a signing statement. "Nevertheless, recent events in Washington, D.C. — and beyond — make it crystal clear that many are not getting the message."
What’s wrong with the best person/persons for the job?
The measure requires at least one female director on the board of each California-based public corporation by the end of next year. Companies would need up to three female directors by the end of 2021, depending on the number of board seats.
The Democratic governor referenced the objections and legal concerns that the law has raised. The California Chamber of Commerce has said the policy will be difficult for companies to implement and violates constitutional prohibitions against discrimination.
"I don't minimize the potential flaws that indeed may prove fatal to its ultimate implementation," Brown wrote in a signing statement. "Nevertheless, recent events in Washington, D.C. — and beyond — make it crystal clear that many are not getting the message."
What’s wrong with the best person/persons for the job?
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
It seems to me that you’re still ducking the issue that what Shapiro was asserting is directly contradicting the study he cited.
He says there’s no difference in suicide rate (forget for a second that he’s conflating suicide rate with suicide attempt rate, which is a fatal flaw in and of itself) along the spectrum of cultural and legal acceptance, which is, again, NOT WHAT THE STUDY SAYS. If you’re going to pull that first highlighted quote from the synopsis, you should include the rest of the sentence.
Adopting his approach, societally, leads to significantly worse mental health outcomes for transgender people. Why, then, should that be our approach, particularly because it’s based on the idea that gender=sex, which may have currency among his particular ideological subset, but reflects neither universal historical norms (as he claims) nor scientific consensus. As a corollary—why do we care? For someone whom you’re saying isn’t “othering” people, why is it so doggone important to say “you are what I say you are, which is sick and in need of help. No offense, though.”
It’s just a strange take, particularly if you know any trans folk.
He says there’s no difference in suicide rate (forget for a second that he’s conflating suicide rate with suicide attempt rate, which is a fatal flaw in and of itself) along the spectrum of cultural and legal acceptance, which is, again, NOT WHAT THE STUDY SAYS. If you’re going to pull that first highlighted quote from the synopsis, you should include the rest of the sentence.
Adopting his approach, societally, leads to significantly worse mental health outcomes for transgender people. Why, then, should that be our approach, particularly because it’s based on the idea that gender=sex, which may have currency among his particular ideological subset, but reflects neither universal historical norms (as he claims) nor scientific consensus. As a corollary—why do we care? For someone whom you’re saying isn’t “othering” people, why is it so doggone important to say “you are what I say you are, which is sick and in need of help. No offense, though.”
It’s just a strange take, particularly if you know any trans folk.
BeanieAntics
Arbitration Eligible
What? I'm not ducking that at all. That was the first thing I addressed. I'm telling you that you are wrong. The only claim that Shapiro made in regards to the Anderson study was that being recognized as Transgender has no bearing (or not a statistically significant bearing) on the amount of suicide attempts they commit. A distribution of 45, 42, 41, 41, and 36 percent is not a statistically significant enough to claim that "passing" has any bearing on suicide attempt rates.
BeanieAntics
Arbitration Eligible
No, that is not what he said when he cited the study. Once again, he explicity stated that the Anderson study suggested that there was no difference in suicidality among those who are or are not recognized as transgenders. That claim was true and supported by the Anderson study. He doesn't cite that study when making any of his other claims. The only other thing that he suggested while making that claim is that there is an exceptionally high comorbidity between transgenderism and suicidality. Which is also true since universally the rates seem to hover around 40% regardless of experience.
BeanieAntics
Arbitration Eligible
Finally this point. Shapiro addresses transgenderism often because he is asked about it often. And there are numerous reasons for him to adopt his position. One, a subset of the transgender community has advocated for compelled speech laws, and they have succeeded in Canada. Two, he has an interest in biology not being changed. Three, he legitimately cares for other humans and he thinks that our current approach to transgenderism is counterproductive. Which, given the fact that suicidality hasn't budged in recent years, has some supporting evidence. Why in the world would he not say someone is sick and in need of help, if he thought they were sick and in need of help? Would you placate a paranoid schizophrenic by telling him that his toaster actually is talking to him? No, you would do everything you could to get that person the care that they need. So if one believes that transgenderism is a serious mental condition, it makes all the sense in the world to advocate for getting them the help you think will work.
BeanieAntics
Arbitration Eligible
And the notion that the scientific community has a consensus that "gender is on a spectrum" is laughable. At best, there is significant debate revolving around the issue. Its such an unverifiable and subjective debate that its virtually impossible to arrive at any scientific consensus given what we currently know about it.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
“...we find that mental health factors and experiences of harassment, discrimination, violence and rejection may interact to produce a marked vulnerability to suicidal behavior in transgender and gender non-conforming individuals.”
Yeah, you’re ducking it, because this is what Shapiro explicitly says is not the case.
Yeah, you’re ducking it, because this is what Shapiro explicitly says is not the case.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Hmmm. Perhaps you could point to some statistically significant treatments for transgender people that correlate with success rates for treatments for schizophrenia.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
“Two interrelated
risk factors appear to be most strongly
related to suicidal behavior among
transgender and gender non-conforming
adults: rejection, discrimination,
victimization, and violence related to
anti-transgender bias and serious mental
health conditions. In this study, we found
a markedly high prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts among respondents who reported experiencing stressors related to anti-transgender bias, and among those who reported having a mental health condition that substantially affects a major life activity. In addition, our analyses suggest that these two sets of risk factors are closely related.“
In some cases they’re talking about differences of 10-30% And this isn’t statistically significant?
risk factors appear to be most strongly
related to suicidal behavior among
transgender and gender non-conforming
adults: rejection, discrimination,
victimization, and violence related to
anti-transgender bias and serious mental
health conditions. In this study, we found
a markedly high prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts among respondents who reported experiencing stressors related to anti-transgender bias, and among those who reported having a mental health condition that substantially affects a major life activity. In addition, our analyses suggest that these two sets of risk factors are closely related.“
In some cases they’re talking about differences of 10-30% And this isn’t statistically significant?
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
So if you want to take the position that, absent all this, transgender people still have a higher rate of suicide attempts, you’re probably right. So where does that leave us?
Should we:
1) Proceed as a society in a way that empirically leads to worse outcomes?
2) Proceed with an open mind and an inclination to further study, in a way that empirically leads to better outcomes?
‘Cause I’m missing the silver bullet here, where the Shapiro approach (“you’re sick and you need help”) actually offers help. Like, in what way does that approach improve anything?
From another study:
“Children and adolescents with gender dysphoria have a higher prevalence of co-occurring mental health diagnoses, including social anxiety disorder, than those without gender dysphoria. Despite this higher prevalence, researchers have found that transgender youths who are supported by their parents have similar rates of mental health comorbidities to cisgender age matched peers.”
So let’s hear it, eh? What “help” would you and Ben Shapiro offer that is empirically more successful than basic acceptance at home or in the workplace, etc? What’s the actual upside of that position?
Should we:
1) Proceed as a society in a way that empirically leads to worse outcomes?
2) Proceed with an open mind and an inclination to further study, in a way that empirically leads to better outcomes?
‘Cause I’m missing the silver bullet here, where the Shapiro approach (“you’re sick and you need help”) actually offers help. Like, in what way does that approach improve anything?
From another study:
“Children and adolescents with gender dysphoria have a higher prevalence of co-occurring mental health diagnoses, including social anxiety disorder, than those without gender dysphoria. Despite this higher prevalence, researchers have found that transgender youths who are supported by their parents have similar rates of mental health comorbidities to cisgender age matched peers.”
So let’s hear it, eh? What “help” would you and Ben Shapiro offer that is empirically more successful than basic acceptance at home or in the workplace, etc? What’s the actual upside of that position?
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BeanieAntics
Arbitration Eligible
"Based on prior research and the findings of this report, we find that mental health factors and experiences of harassment, discrimination, violence and rejection MAY interact to produce a marked vulnerability to suicidal behavior in transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. More research on suicidal behavior among transgender and gender non-conforming people is needed."....... That doesn't exactly sound like a categorical refutation of Ben Shapiro's position. That sounds like rather inconclusive results.
I simply don't believe that the study categorically denies the assertions made by Shapiro in that speech, specifically in regards to that study. It provides raw numbers that agree with his single claim and then it speculates that harassment etc. may attribute to higher suicide rates. It does have some numbers to suggest elevated suicide rates due to harassment, but there is a problem that I have with this study. The problem is that the methodology of the study uses self reporting. There have been numerous studies that have shown that people who believe they are a part of marginalized group will perceive harassment or bullying when non is present. Or at least they will perceive harassment/bullying when people who don't identify as marginalized would not perceive that. That is a major issue with studying transgenderism in general. Perhaps Shapiro shouldn't have cited that study, but he did. And the findings of that study are consistent with the claim he made using the study, however faulty the methodology might be.
For the claim about harassment/bullying not causing suicide, he does not cite that study or any others just saying that "a lot of studies" suggest that there isn't much correlation or that we don't know if there is a correlation. He also doubts that bullying would raise the suicide rate by a factor of 10 for transgender people. If that were the case, we would see that across the spectrum of marginalized groups and we don't. He cites marginalized groups like black people and their low suicide rates. This is all to suggest that there is something unique about transgenders and their suicide rates. He doesn't make the claim that bullying doesn't cause elevated suicide rates amongst transgenders, he makes the claim that bullying doesn't explain the enormous gap that already exists among the community and general population. Finally he makes the claim that there is no evidence to suggest that the suicide rate would not go down if we pretended men were women and women were men. To my knowledge, no evidence exists that would prove this claim false. The suicide rate has remained exceedingly high despite society increasingly becoming more accepting of transgender folk.
So if you want to say that the study's overall conclusion disagrees with some of Shapiro's other assertions, sure I'll grant you that. But the single claim Shapiro made referencing the study was true. And the other assertions he made about suicide and bullying are absolutely backed up by other studies that I can provide if you wish. It'll have to be tomorrow, though. I've perused the internet too long tonight and I've let some of my real work back up on me.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
I personally don’t find the bullying argument to be hugely persuasive, and I still dispute that his central claim is supported by the study, based as it is on a single data point (“people can tell I’m transgender/GNC,”) when others tend not to support it. That’s in addition to the fact that we’ve arbitrarily decided that 5% is not statistically significant. Consider that dead horse adequately beaten.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
So he's a Christian Scientist?
Runnin
Well-known member
Were Megan Kelly's 'blackface' remarks so bad? What if a white kid, or adult, really loves Michael Jackson (pre pigmentation disease) and wants to dress up as him on Halloween? Intent seems to have a place in the discussion.
So here are some pics of Admiral Perry's band playing in Yokohama port in 1855, marking the very first time the Japanese ever heard American music. Of course, racial insensitivity in the 1800's aren't the issue, but think these pics are interesting. They were drawn by Japanese artists present at the musical performance. I'm guessing that the actual musicians were all white but felt that appearing in black face would enhance the performance, even though the Japanese surely had next to no experience with actual Africans.
So here are some pics of Admiral Perry's band playing in Yokohama port in 1855, marking the very first time the Japanese ever heard American music. Of course, racial insensitivity in the 1800's aren't the issue, but think these pics are interesting. They were drawn by Japanese artists present at the musical performance. I'm guessing that the actual musicians were all white but felt that appearing in black face would enhance the performance, even though the Japanese surely had next to no experience with actual Africans.
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Jaw
It's OVER 5,000!
Were Megan Kelly's 'blackface' remarks so bad? What if a white kid, or adult, really loves Michael Jackson (pre pigmentation disease) and wants to dress up as him on Halloween? Intent seems to have a place in the discussion.
So here are some pics of Admiral Perry's band playing in Yokohama port in 1855, marking the very first time the Japanese ever heard American music. Of course, racial insensitivity in the 1800's aren't the issue, but think these pics are interesting. They were drawn by Japanese artists present at the musical performance.
I love old cartoons. Recently I came across some that have become really hard to find, with good reason. Derogatory racial stereotypes that it's hard to imagine were ever okay. It's just shocking to think of them as being beamed into kids' heads on Saturday morning and I am glad they have been taken out of circulation.
But then I also think of Song of the South. I don't clearly remember everything from that movie but I do remember what I thought of Uncle Remus. Uncle Remus was the first black man I ever felt like I knew. He had a down home, poor, southern, rural style that would have fit in perfectly with everyone else I knew at that time. I loved Uncle Remus and just associated his simple and kind wisdom with everyone who was black. That's obviously childish but it also made life much easier for me when I moved from an all white school to a very diverse school early in elementary school. I don't really know what my point is, just a feeling that we should evaluate things carefully before we decide to take things out of circulation ala Song of the South.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Intent matters. And I think people's track records do as well. And Ms. Kelly has a bit of a track record. Including some odd comments about Santa and Jesus being white. Not sure why the ethnicity of those two people matters. But it seems to have mattered to her.
Btw to step back and look at this whole PC business. PC is alive and well and something to be deplored. But claims of oppression from the PC police also are used to justify attempts to dehumanize and marginalize people who are different. That is also to be deplored. Even more so.