Position players and WAR

BremanFan88 said:
I'm not sure why some want to devalue defense. Hitting isn't just the only part of the game of baseball. Defense is a major part of the game and just as important if not more important then hitting. There's a reason good fielding teams tend to make it to the playoffs. But then again some people think a football game that ends 63-62 is somehow how a "good game"... This is why the DH is coming to the NL sooner than later. The fans need their offensive fix cause that's all that seems to matter anymore.
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Defense is extremely important in a sense. And I cant stress enough the importance of defense at defensive premium spots.

But, WAR, imo, overstates defense at non premiuim positions. This is a thought that is opined by others that follow the game.

The one article I posted mentions how the Mariners thought they were gonna moneyball the league and loaded up on defense only to finish as the worst team in baseball.
 
thewupk said:
Why? As Enscheff stated, pretty much every good play a corner OF will make will turn an extra base hit into an out. No, they don't get the same amount of action a CF or SS does but the great plays they do save prevents big hits. And that can add up pretty quickly. Defense is important at every position.
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Not every play turns an extra base hit into an out and I doubt 1 in 4 plays is a play that Heyward turns from a run into an out. How many balls does he catch running in on the ball to catch a flyball/liner? Those aren't extra base hits. Or the balls that he may cut off in the gap, that's not saving a run, it's saving a base. (which yes, possibly could turn into a run)
 
JCarbo76 said:
I think that with enough sample size defensive metrics do a pretty good job of telling you who is the best SS, the best RF etc. However, I think they do a pretty inaccurate job of quantifying runs saved, wins, etc. I will take a 4owar/1 dwar guy all day over a 1owar/4dwar guy.
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I am with you.
 
gilesfan said:
Not every play turns an extra base hit into an out and I doubt 1 in 4 plays is a play that Heyward turns from a run into an out. How many balls does he catch running in on the ball to catch a flyball/liner? Those aren't extra base hits. Or the balls that he may cut off in the gap, that's not saving a run, it's saving a base. (which yes, possibly could turn into a run)
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You're just showing your ignorance of advanced metrics. It's not as cut and dry as Heyward stopped 5 doubles and therefore saved 3 runs.
 
gilesfan said:
BC no one in their right mind would claim Heyward has been the better player in 2013. Or any of the other guys listed.
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Heyward has certainly been better than Harper. The rest is debateable. Do you take a LF who scores more runs but costs more runs in the field?

Preventing runs is as important as scoring them. You can argue that defensive metrics aren't 100% accurate and you'd have a good case. But then again you can argue that offensive numbers aren't 100% correct either. We'd be making a long cyclical argument.
 
zitothebrave said:
You're just showing your ignorance of advanced metrics. It's not as cut and dry as Heyward stopped 5 doubles and therefore saved 3 runs.
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No, I fully understand them. I'm not like you and post stats without knowing what they mean.
 
zitothebrave said:
Heyward has certainly been better than Harper. The rest is debateable. Do you take a LF who scores more runs but costs more runs in the field?

Preventing runs is as important as scoring them. You can argue that defensive metrics aren't 100% accurate and you'd have a good case. But then again you can argue that offensive numbers aren't 100% correct either. We'd be making a long cyclical argument.
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Yeah. Sure. Obviosly Heyward has 40 more PAs so that is accounted for in WAR.

But, Harper has been 14.7 runs above average offensively compared to Heywards 8.4. But War Claims Heyward has been a run better based on the theory that Heyward has been 14 runs better defensively in only 130ish chances. If you want to believe that, go ahead.
 
gilesfan said:
Yeah. Sure. Obviosly Heyward has 40 more PAs so that is accounted for in WAR.

But, Harper has been 14.7 runs above average offensively compared to Heywards 8.4. But War Claims Heyward has been a run better based on the theory that Heyward has been 14 runs better defensively in only 130ish chances. If you want to believe that, go ahead.
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Harper has a 1 point advantage in wRC. Even with a few points in wRAA advantage to Harper I feel safe in saying that Heyward has saved 7 more runs than Harper has. I feel really safe saying that.
 
This just reminds me when thethe said Harper was better than Trout

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Oh those were good times.
 
sturg33 said:
This just reminds me when thethe said Harper was better than Trout

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Oh those were good times.
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Can you post where I said Harper was better than Trout? Thanks.
 
Harper was well on his way to a better age 20 season prior to getting hurt. We will see who has the last laugh on this one.
 
zitothebrave said:
Harper has a 1 point advantage in wRC. Even with a few points in wRAA advantage to Harper I feel safe in saying that Heyward has saved 7 more runs than Harper has. I feel really safe saying that.
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Heyward has a WAR of 2.9. Harper has a WAR of 2.0. Thus, if they were equal offensively (which they aren't), then you do that math on how many more runs Heyward has saved to equal almost 1 win. It's not 7, is it?
 
gilesfan said:
Heyward has a WAR of 2.9. Harper has a WAR of 2.0. Thus, if they were equal offensively (which they aren't), then you do that math on how many more runs Heyward has saved to equal almost 1 win. It's not 7, is it?
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Well again shows your ignorance. If you want to say Harper should be a few points higher and Heyward should be a few points lower, that's fine. I don't think anyone has said WAR is perfect. Just far and away the best tool we have for total player evaluation.
 
zitothebrave said:
Well again shows your ignorance. If you want to say Harper should be a few points higher and Heyward should be a few points lower, that's fine. I don't think anyone has said WAR is perfect. Just far and away the best tool we have for total player evaluation.
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Where did you get the 7 runs from? Do you think if you polled 2,000 people that follow baseball that they would they Heyward has had a better 2013 season than Harper so far? How many would believe he's been 18 runs better?
 
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