Post Post-Heyward Discussion Here.

thethe said:
Kind of seems like you are but JS and Co seem to be pinning a bunch of Wren so this type of game is fair play for sure.
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Wren certainly isn't free of blame. He could have stood up to them if he didn't like things, but I have a sneaking suspicion some of Wren's worst moves may have had other people's hands helping stir the pot. Bringing over Uggla and extending him was not an unpopular decision at the time, but going specifically for Uggla? Especially when we had Prado? Even with our massive need for right handed power, doesn't make a ton of sense in a vacuum until you add in we just Brought Fredi from Florida and seemingly, Uggla was his boy.
 
zitothebrave said:
Wren certainly isn't free of blame. He could have stood up to them if he didn't like things, but I have a sneaking suspicion some of Wren's worst moves may have had other people's hands helping stir the pot. Bringing over Uggla and extending him was not an unpopular decision at the time, but going specifically for Uggla? Especially when we had Prado? Even with our massive need for right handed power, doesn't make a ton of sense in a vacuum until you add in we just Brought Fredi from Florida and seemingly, Uggla was his boy.
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I disagree with your suspicions but its certainly plausible. There is a lot of finger pointing being done by the current front office without actually saying anything.
 
I lay a lot of the current problem at Wren's feet, but I don't think that necessarily absolves those above him from some measure of blame. I just don't think Wren put down a blueprint and said, "Here's where I think we should be next year and here's my vision for five years from now." There was a lot of fixing the car while it was still moving; impulsive moves that addressed short-term needs without a thought on the implications for down the road. I'll stick to my guns until my dying day that the presence of Melvin Upton is why Heyward is now a St. Louis Cardinal.

I thought the Uggla trade was fine, but thought the extension was a mistake (wrong side of 30 for a very unathletic guy who didn't look like he'd age well). I do wonder how much input Fredi had into that particular decision.
 
Wren clearly held the belief that strikeouts didn't matter. I find it hard to believe that such a traditional front office agreed with that assessment. BJ Upton was brought here because they didn't consider the strikeouts to be a huge detriment to the overall offensive productivity.
 
thethe said:
Wren clearly held the belief that strikeouts didn't matter. I find it hard to believe that such a traditional front office agreed with that assessment. BJ Upton was brought here because they didn't consider the strikeouts to be a huge detriment to the overall offensive productivity.
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But I cannot believe that Schuerholz didn't agree with that assessment, especially when $75 million was being doled out. I was always skeptical regarding Wren, but Schuerholz did bring him in (I believe after Bill Lajoie left his consulting role) and he gave Wren a strong endorsement when he tossed him the keys to the vehicle.
 
50PoundHead said:
But I cannot believe that Schuerholz didn't agree with that assessment, especially when $75 million was being doled out.
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Of course. Everyone's hands were dirty but Wren had a lot of success at this point (with a large portion attributable to players drafted by Roy Clark) so it was probably harder to come up with good cause to say no.
 
zitothebrave said:
Wren certainly isn't free of blame. He could have stood up to them if he didn't like things, but I have a sneaking suspicion some of Wren's worst moves may have had other people's hands helping stir the pot. Bringing over Uggla and extending him was not an unpopular decision at the time, but going specifically for Uggla? Especially when we had Prado? Even with our massive need for right handed power, doesn't make a ton of sense in a vacuum until you add in we just Brought Fredi from Florida and seemingly, Uggla was his boy.
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I thought it was accepted at the time that Fredi played a HUGE role in convincing Wren to go after Uggla?
 
thethe said:
Wren clearly held the belief that strikeouts didn't matter. I find it hard to believe that such a traditional front office agreed with that assessment. BJ Upton was brought here because they didn't consider the strikeouts to be a huge detriment to the overall offensive productivity.
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And I will say it wouldn't have been a huge detriment or any kind of detriment had BJ hit like he had his last few years with the Rays. Nobody expected Upton to bottom out and be one of the worst hitters in baseball.
 
thewupk said:
And I will say it wouldn't have been a huge detriment or any kind of detriment had BJ hit like he had his last few years with the Rays. Nobody expected Upton to bottom out and be one of the worst hitters in baseball.
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Fair point but it did happen and it does happen more with players who have shown an inability to make contact in the past. Now don't get me wrong I was ok with the player but not hte contract so I got it wrong as well. I'm just trying to make the argument that the offense reached new levels of ineptitude because of an espoused philosophy I doubt our current traditional front office shared.
 
thethe said:
Fair point but it did happen and it does happen more with players who have shown an inability to make contact in the past. Now don't get me wrong I was ok with the player but not hte contract so I got it wrong as well. I'm just trying to make the argument that the offense reached new levels of ineptitude because of an espoused philosophy I doubt our current traditional front office shared.
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It reached new levels of ineptitude becuase we had horrible hitters. Simmons is a contact guy and he was just as bad as any of the other offenders on the team. But yes sudden failure does happen a lot to players who K a lot. Uggla being a prime example. But it generally doesn't happen to guys who are in their prime and in shape.
 
thewupk said:
And I will say it wouldn't have been a huge detriment or any kind of detriment had BJ hit like he had his last few years with the Rays. Nobody expected Upton to bottom out and be one of the worst hitters in baseball.
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Its so Braves that we don't give out many big contracts, but currently have two of the worst in baseball.
 
thewupk said:
And I will say it wouldn't have been a huge detriment or any kind of detriment had BJ hit like he had his last few years with the Rays. Nobody expected Upton to bottom out and be one of the worst hitters in baseball.
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But to me that's beside the point. Wren sunk $15 MM per year into a non-core player on a team with a tight budget. Heyward was expected to be a core player and they should have treated him like one once he became eligible for arbitration. Instead, he sunk money into Melvin Upton. There were other options.
 
50PoundHead said:
But to me that's beside the point. Wren sunk $15 MM per year into a non-core player on a team with a tight budget. Heyward was expected to be a core player and they should have treated him like one once he became eligible for arbitration. Instead, he sunk money into Melvin Upton. There were other options.
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There were other options sure. But we also had Uggla coming off the books in 2015 so that's an extra 13 million that could have been given to Heyward if necessary. What really hurts (well the entire contract is horrible) is the 5th year.
 
I just think they should have gotten out in front with Heyward and even though Uggla's number comes off the books the year Jason hits free agency, we still would have had $30 million tied up in Melvin. Those dollars (and the subsequent dollars in the Chris Johnson extension) could have gone toward Heyward. I just see it as an example of not seeing the big picture on the part of Wren.
 
50PoundHead said:
I just think they should have gotten out in front with Heyward and even though Uggla's number comes off the books the year Jason hits free agency, we still would have had $30 million tied up in Melvin. Those dollars (and the subsequent dollars in the Chris Johnson extension) could have gone toward Heyward. I just see it as an example of not seeing the big picture on the part of Wren.
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Your idea of fixing on the fly is making more and more sense. Wren definitely wasn't forward looking enough.
 
50PoundHead said:
I just think they should have gotten out in front with Heyward and even though Uggla's number comes off the books the year Jason hits free agency, we still would have had $30 million tied up in Melvin. Those dollars (and the subsequent dollars in the Chris Johnson extension) could have gone toward Heyward. I just see it as an example of not seeing the big picture on the part of Wren.
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I don't disagree with that. But I think the Braves could have afforded Heyward if they wanted to. They just don't see him as worth what it will take. I don't think money available is really the issue. Heyward should have been locked up after his first year.
 
thewupk said:
I don't disagree with that. But I think the Braves could have afforded Heyward if they wanted to. They just don't see him as worth what it will take. I don't think money available is really the issue. Heyward should have been locked up after his first year.
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Yup, they dropped the ball on Heyward early on. This offseason they didn't really have a choice but to trade him.
 
zitothebrave said:
Wren certainly isn't free of blame. He could have stood up to them if he didn't like things, but I have a sneaking suspicion some of Wren's worst moves may have had other people's hands helping stir the pot. Bringing over Uggla and extending him was not an unpopular decision at the time, but going specifically for Uggla? Especially when we had Prado? Even with our massive need for right handed power, doesn't make a ton of sense in a vacuum until you add in we just Brought Fredi from Florida and seemingly, Uggla was his boy.
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You're looking way too far into that whole scenario. Details have been documented, and jibe with the timeline. They were looking for a RH powering hitting OF. Wren couldn't find one. So, even though a 2B was not the first choice, as a former "super sub," they didn't expect resistance from Prado at moving positions. Fredi's opinion was asked about the deal before it was completed. His response was (maybe paraphrasing slightly) "who else are you giving up?"

Yeah, we have plenty of posters who act as if they foresaw the rapid decline. Hell, these are the professionals. Uggla was hitting maybe .250, but he was always good for 40HR/100 RBI's, banging doubles in a lineup that had not much other than Hanley. So, let's not pretend that this was "damaged goods" at the time it happened.
 
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