Postseason Thread

I actually did not think Utley's slide was dirty. It was a late slide and a bit high, but I thought it was completely legal and I thought Utley did the right thing. Yes, his goal was to take out Tejada, but that's what he is supposed to do on that play and especially in that situation.
 
weso1 said:
I actually did not think Utley's slide was dirty. It was a late slide and a bit high, but I thought it was completely legal and I thought Utley did the right thing. Yes, his goal was to take out Tejada, but that's what he is supposed to do on that play and especially in that situation.
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It wasn't even a slide.
 
weso1 said:
His leg slid on on the ground. A high slide and a late slide, but definitely a slide. He definitely wanted to take him out, but that's what he's supposed to do there.
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Baseball has to change this. It shouldn't be allowed to just take a player out, and it technically isn't. The rule says that if a player is clearly trying to just stop a double play and interferes, both the runner and batter are out. But somewhere along the line, baseball decided that so long as a baserunner can still technically touch the base somehow, he can basically do whatever he wants. It's insane.

And yes, it is dirty. He 'slid' with the sole intention of taking Tejada out. He started his slide at the bag, didn't really even slide, and never touched the base. That's as dirty as it gets. The fact that this is celebrated in some baseball circles is absurd. But even guys like Pedro and Alex Cora came out strongly against it and called it dirty.
 
smootness said:
Baseball has to change this. It shouldn't be allowed to just take a player out, and it technically isn't. The rule says that if a player is clearly trying to just stop a double play and interferes, both the runner and batter are out. But somewhere along the line, baseball decided that so long as a baserunner can still technically touch the base somehow, he can basically do whatever he wants. It's insane.

And yes, it is dirty. He 'slid' with the sole intention of taking Tejada out. He started his slide at the bag, didn't really even slide, and never touched the base. That's as dirty as it gets. The fact that this is celebrated in some baseball circles is absurd. But even guys like Pedro and Alex Cora came out strongly against it and called it dirty.
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Yep, agreed across the board.

Umpires should be instructed to enforce the interference rule on egregious cases like that, with no exception. I don't know why they aren't.
 
Chipper said it was dirty too.

I dislike that word choice though, it seems to infer malintent.

Was the slide too aggressive? Or cheap? Yeah.

Utley wanted to break up the DP, not maim Tejada.
 
Hawk said:
Chipper said it was dirty too.

I dislike that word choice though, it seems to infer malintent.

Was the slide too aggressive? Or cheap? Yeah.

Utley wanted to break up the DP, not maim Tejada.
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But I'm sick of the 'Utley wasn't trying to hurt Tejada' defense. No one is saying Utley was thinking, 'I'm about to break this douche's leg.' But he was completely reckless and had no regard for Tejada. I don't think he wanted to or intended to hurt Tejada. But based on his actions, he clearly didn't really care that much what happened to Tejada. Especially since he just popped up and ran off the field after the play.

That's a dirty play. Especially for a career middle infielder himself. He absolutely knows the danger of what he did, and he did it anyway.
 
smootness said:
But I'm sick of the 'Utley wasn't trying to hurt Tejada' defense.
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Why? Because it contradicts a boring, monochromatic perspective?

A 'dirty' play is Robert Fick trying to swat the ball out of Eric Karros' glove. Not a hard slide.

It was a crucial moment in a crucial game for a player who is at the end of sterling (and respected) career. Sometimes adrenaline takes over. Utley has always played hard as hell. If he had been wearing a Braves uniform we would be all over that grit, as LA fans seem to be.

And the sentiment that Utley "clearly really didn't care" about Tejada is, well, pretty ridiculous on several levels. We're not talking about Pete Rose here.
 
Ken Rosenthal:

Spoke today with one of the most fair-minded major leaguers I know.

This is his perspective on the Utley slide. I'm presenting it simply with the goal of trying to add perspective.

"In any sport when you put a replay in slow motion viewers/analysts think athletes are weighing thoughts and pros/cons because it looks slow.

"We play on instincts and react to situations. We know with one out, 1st and 3rd and a double-play situation we HAVE to try and break up the play.

"We don't take into account the possibility of a bad throw or middle infielder being in awkward position."

I pointed out to the player that Utley's slide was high and late. He did not disagree.

"Two points...

"In a regular season game Tejada likely catches ball and takes the one out, but he knows situation as Chase does who probably (but maybe not because he plays one way) slides different.

"Both guys know the series is essentially on the line there and want to make a winning play."
 
Hawk said:
Ken Rosenthal:

Spoke today with one of the most fair-minded major leaguers I know.

This is his perspective on the Utley slide. I'm presenting it simply with the goal of trying to add perspective.

"In any sport when you put a replay in slow motion viewers/analysts think athletes are weighing thoughts and pros/cons because it looks slow.

"We play on instincts and react to situations. We know with one out, 1st and 3rd and a double-play situation we HAVE to try and break up the play.

"We don't take into account the possibility of a bad throw or middle infielder being in awkward position."

I pointed out to the player that Utley's slide was high and late. He did not disagree.

"Two points...

"In a regular season game Tejada likely catches ball and takes the one out, but he knows situation as Chase does who probably (but maybe not because he plays one way) slides different.

"Both guys know the series is essentially on the line there and want to make a winning play."
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All of that is fine. It's still a dirty play. Utley's sole purpose in making that 'slide' was to take out Tejada to break up the DP. The fact that he is a MI himself and still went in way late and not even in a real slide shows me he had no regard for what ultimately happened to Tejada on the play. His goal was taking Tejada out by any means necessary.

If that's a regular season game, Utley also doesn't go in like that because he knows the danger, and it's not a big enough situation to warrant it.

It has nothing to do with it being in slow-motion. It looks worse in real time. In real time, it's obvious Utley didn't care about sliding past the bag or even touching the bag at all. His sole purpose was diving into Tejada's legs for the purpose of taking him out. Obviously, every knows the potential consequences when you do that, but he did it anyway.

The reason I dislike the rush by everyone to say, 'Utley didn't intend to hurt Tejada,' is because it's simplifying the situation for the purpose of defending Utley. A football player who makes a dirty hit on a player doesn't necessarily intend to hurt that player. Very, very few people in any sport are going to take an action for the actual purpose of causing injury. But there absolutely are players who make plays they know cross the line without real concern for the danger involved for the player. In my opinion, this was clearly one of those cases.
 
Hawk said:
Why? Because it contradicts a boring, monochromatic perspective?

A 'dirty' play is Robert Fick trying to swat the ball out of Eric Karros' glove. Not a hard slide.

It was a crucial moment in a crucial game for a player who is at the end of sterling (and respected) career. Sometimes adrenaline takes over. Utley has always played hard as hell. If he had been wearing a Braves uniform we would be all over that grit, as LA fans seem to be.

And the sentiment that Utley "clearly really didn't care" about Tejada is, well, pretty ridiculous on several levels. We're not talking about Pete Rose here.
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I don't see the difference between this play, and Fick's swat. They're both dirty plays, and both technically illegal. I don't really think Fick's intention was to injure Karros, just simply knock the ball loose just as Utley was doing here. An act doesn't have to have the intent to injure to be dirty anyway.
 
NYCBrave said:
I've been harping on this and I'll continue to say it. I truly believe there is a correlation of the Braves post season failures and the culture of the organization. There has never been a sense of urgency to win, which comes from the culture the front office/management have created and our apathetic fan base. Living in NYC, I've been able to see that winning is the only option or else the fans/writers/organization are deemed a failure. With Atlanta, it's always been "Oh well, good try, maybe next year." The Mets have been made to be a laughingstock by the media in NY over the past decade. When have Bowman/DOB or any of these other Atlanta journalists ever once done anything to hold the team accountable? It's always a positive spin and that just feeds into this same culture. Don't see anything ever changing, especially with a faceless ownership who cares about the bottom line, and these old relics (who've once done amazing things but are wellllll past their prime) being kept around in our front office.
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I don't see anything wrong with working hard to have a solid organization and trying to put the best team possible on the field. You can bet there is plenty of competitive fire to win in the FO. But this 'urgency to win' stuff is pretty silly anywhere but on the field. It's just sports, fer chrisssakes. Good, hard-nosed players want to win as bad as the fans.
 
I couldn't disagree more with MLB's decision. A legal play (based on what umps actually call) in which Utley's only intent was to break up the double play. If you need to change the rule in the offseason then do it, but a suspension is completely over the top. Had Tejada not gotten hurt there wouldn't even be a discussion about a suspension.
 
CyYoung31 said:
I don't see the difference between this play, and Fick's swat. They're both dirty plays, and both technically illegal. I don't really think Fick's intention was to injure Karros, just simply knock the ball loose just as Utley was doing here. An act doesn't have to have the intent to injure to be dirty anyway.
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Because Fick had a clear understanding that what he was doing was against the rules. Umps almost never call the runner out when they slide late or high. Utley was just doing his job, based on his understanding of the rules. Keep in mind that the umps didn't call Utley out for his slide.
 
weso1 said:
Because Fick had a clear understanding that what he was doing was against the rules. Umps almost never call the runner out when they slide late or high. Utley was just doing his job, based on his understanding of the rules. Keep in mind that the umps didn't call Utley out for his slide.
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Yeah, okay. Utley didn't "understand". Gotcha.
 
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