Quintana to Cubs

[nsacpi]

Sale is Sale. You can't do math on it.

There are a finite number of 5+ WAR starting pitchers. Much less one that has done it in the AL. Then add the contract.

I know some will say WAR is WAR but you aren't getting Sale for Inciarte's War and Simmons' WAR. Dominant starters on cheap deals are the unicorns.

there is some validity to your point...i still think that summing up the expected surplus value of the players traded is a good starting point...but some adjustments need to be made after that

 

[Russ2dollas]

Coppy had plenty of studs to sell off. Problem is he watered down the returns by trying to unload money or get present value in the packages. He also foolishly decided to waste the majority of his biggest stud pitcher's value.

It doesn't matter what assets he had to sell. All that matters is he didn't sell them anywhere close to the most efficient way possible. The Sox are, and should be commended.

It's ok to criticize the Braves FO. You're still a fan of you don't agree with everything they have done.

I hear you and I agree on most. Maybe you don't mean to but I've read your posts for a while and it comes off like the Sox are geniuses and Coppy is avg at best. I don't think that gap is there.

I can list 10 things easy that I don't like that Coppy has done or is doing.

Attaching BJ to Kimbrel was a big mistake. It's even bigger when you consider they signed Neck with most of that "savings."

Not selling high on JT could be as bad as not selling high on Jurjens. We don't know yet. My issue with harping on the Tehran no deal is that we don't know what he's said no to. Last year I wanted JT traded but I wanted a haul for him. I was looking for 1 of Monchada, Devers, Kopech from the R Sox. I don't think that was offered. Reading around most people do not value Tehran as a TOR starter. For years guys like Dave Cameron have been calling him a 4-5.

I think Tehran is more valuable to the Braves then the return for a 4th starter. If that is what they get offered then I'm keeping JT until the winter before my penultimate year of JT control. By then I should have 3+ rotation spots filled with trade guy, Folty, Newcombe, Wright, Allard, Soroka, Sims or Gohard.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

Stupid to compare trades in different years and different positions. The soxs and braves received the best value from trading pitchers. The soxs had better and more pitching to trade. The market is also different. I think a market favoring sellers on pitching has been exploited and opened wide ass open the last two years.

 

[Russ2dollas]

Individually, yes.

But the Braves have gotten less from their 6 very valuable players than the White Sox got with their 2. That's unacceptable.

We saw what a closer like Kimbrel can bring back in a trade, and we saw what we got back - as just one example

I think you are doing an apples to oranges comparison.

The Kimbrel deal is a legit concern. We know they lowered his value adding BJ. The question is how much damage did that do, IMO a lot. But he's still not netting you Eloy and Eloy wins the deal by himself.

Simmons I think we rushed on. I think we should have gotten more. But Simmons is going to have to be hitting above a 750 OPS for a couple of years if you think you are getting Eloy or Moncada.

I agree 100% we should have gotten more.

I disagree that any GM for the braves is going to get Eloy and Moncada for any players on the Braves sans Freddie.

The ONLY way that happens is if you get lucky and you have Kimbrel when there are teams like the Cubs a closer away from the WS. I wish we had CK to deal last year. I really really do.

 

[nsacpi]

Sale is Sale. You can't do math on it.

There are a finite number of 5+ WAR starting pitchers. Much less one that has done it in the AL. Then add the contract.

I know some will say WAR is WAR but you aren't getting Sale for Inciarte's War and Simmons' WAR. Dominant starters on cheap deals are the unicorns.

There is something to your point. I think adding up expected surplus value of assets traded away is a good starting point. But some adjustments should be made after that for how those assets are "bundled" in the form of particular players with particular contracts.

 

[thewupk]

there is some validity to your point...i still think that summing up the expected surplus value of the players traded is a good starting point...but some adjustments need to be made after that

It's the correct way to do it because that's how trades are mostly made these days.

 

[CrimsonCowboy]

Per Bob Nightengale, the Braves were talking with the White Sox about Quintana up until the end.

 

[thewupk]

I think you are doing an apples to oranges comparison.

The Kimbrel deal is a legit concern. We know they lowered his value adding BJ. The question is how much damage did that do, IMO a lot. But he's still not netting you Eloy and Eloy wins the deal by himself.

Simmons I think we rushed on. I think we should have gotten more. But Simmons is going to have to be hitting above a 750 OPS for a couple of years if you think you are getting Eloy or Moncada.

I agree 100% we should have gotten more.

I disagree that any GM for the braves is going to get Eloy and Moncada for any players on the Braves sans Freddie.

The ONLY way that happens is if you get lucky and you have Kimbrel when there are teams like the Cubs a closer away from the WS. I wish we had CK to deal last year. I really really do.

The Braves got Swanson, a 65 FV player, for Miller.

 

[Enscheff]

I hear you and I agree on most. Maybe you don't mean to but I've read your posts for a while and it comes off like the Sox are geniuses and Coppy is avg at best. I don't think that gap is there.

I can list 10 things easy that I don't like that Coppy has done or is doing.

Attaching BJ to Kimbrel was a big mistake. It's even bigger when you consider they signed Neck with most of that "savings."

Not selling high on JT could be as bad as not selling high on Jurjens. We don't know yet. My issue with harping on the Tehran no deal is that we don't know what he's said no to. Last year I wanted JT traded but I wanted a haul for him. I was looking for 1 of Monchada, Devers, Kopech from the R Sox. I don't think that was offered. Reading around most people do not value Tehran as a TOR starter. For years guys like Dave Cameron have been calling him a 4-5.

I think Tehran is more valuable to the Braves then the return for a 4th starter. If that is what they get offered then I'm keeping JT until the winter before my penultimate year of JT control. By then I should have 3+ rotation spots filled with trade guy, Folty, Newcombe, Wright, Allard, Soroka, Sims or Gohard.

So far, at the earliest stages of a rebuild, the ChiSox are geniuses. They have navigated the rebukld to perfection, and done a much better job than the Braves did.

That doesn't mean the ChiSox were good at building a consistent winner, since they obviously weren't. The Braves have proven capable of doing that under JS and Wren.

That doesn't mean the ChiSox are going to be good at transitioning from a rebuild to contention...but I haven't seen anything to make me think Coppy is going to do that well either.

When I applaud the ChiSox, I am commending the early stages of their rebuild, and nothing more. They have orchestrated this thing 100% perfectly so far, in my opinion. And yes, they have done a much better job than the Braves did when they started their rebuild.

 

[Managuarantano's Volunteers]

I think the right way to compare is to add up the expected surplus value of the players traded away...that would be a good starting point

I feel like I already did this during Spring Training and showed it was comparable. We easily had more value if you subtracted Upton, though. I'm sure the White Sox had more after Quintana

 

[sturg33]

The Kimbrel deal is a legit concern. We know they lowered his value adding BJ. The question is how much damage did that do, IMO a lot. But he's still not netting you Eloy and Eloy wins the deal by himself.

.

2 months of Aroldis Chapman netted Gleybor Torres, whom many believe is better than Eloy.

The Kimbrel deal turned out to be a disaster, not only because we didn't maximize value, but we also didnt get anything useful back in hindsight

 

[UNCBlue012]

2 months of Aroldis Chapman netted Gleybor Torres, whom many believe is better than Eloy.

The Kimbrel deal turned out to be a disaster, not only because we didn't maximize value, but we also didnt get anything useful back in hindsight

you also have to keep in mind that the market is ever-changing and that's not something to blame on Coppy. Value changes so fast. The Kimbrel trade was idiotic, but Coppy has been, for the most part, terrific.

 

[Super]

2 months of Aroldis Chapman netted Gleybor Torres, whom many believe is better than Eloy.

The Kimbrel deal turned out to be a disaster, not only because we didn't maximize value, but we also didnt get anything useful back in hindsight

Wisler was highly-regarded at the time. And we don't know what will become of Riley. And perhaps we had to get Upton's terrible contract out of here. Who knows what went on behind the scenes with him. Just a terrible contract.

 

[Tapate50]

2 months of Aroldis Chapman netted Gleybor Torres, whom many believe is better than Eloy.

The Kimbrel deal turned out to be a disaster, not only because we didn't maximize value, but we also didnt get anything useful back in hindsight

I agree with the only caveat is that at the time of the Kimbrel deal there was a "closers are over valued" movement going on...

But then afterwards after we were told there was such a pitching surplus that it was devalued, that very ASB and trade deadline the market for relievers exploded.

 

[50PoundHead]

Looks like the Cubs gave up Jimenez (who looks to be a stud) and three spare part types.

 

[Tapate50]

This discussion is going on in two separate threads.

 

[sturg33]

but Coppy has been, for the most part, terrific.

I would vehemently disagree with this.

I'd give him a C-

 

[Enscheff]

Equivalent package from the Braves would have been Acuna plus Gohara plus some filler.

Coppy should be given credit for not doing that. He could have easily beaten the Cubs package, but he wisely understood now is not the time to overpay for "win now" moves.

 

[Preacher]

So far, at the earliest stages of a rebuild, the ChiSox are geniuses. They have navigated the rebukld to perfection, and done a much better job than the Braves did.

That doesn't mean the ChiSox were good at building a consistent winner, since they obviously weren't. The Braves have proven capable of doing that under JS and Wren.

That doesn't mean the ChiSox are going to be good at transitioning from a rebuild to contention...but I haven't seen anything to make me think Coppy is going to do that well either.

When I applaud the ChiSox, I am commending the early stages of their rebuild, and nothing more. They have orchestrated this thing 100% perfectly so far, in my opinion. And yes, they have done a much better job than the Braves did when they started their rebuild.

I brought it up before, but I don't see how you can say they've managed their rebuild 100% perfectly when they blew a golden chance to murder the international market before the new set of rules was in place.

The Braves got Maitan+Severino+Soto+Pena+Contreas+Del Rosario+Guiterrez for less than what the Sox paid Luis Robert.

I do think the Sox did very well with dealing their prime assets, but they missed a big opportunity internationally that the Braves/Padres capitalized on. Time will tell what those prospects become, but both the Padres and Braves and the Yankees several years earlier exploited the old system to add a huge influx of talent, its just something the Sox didn't do. As good as their returns from those trades have been, how much better would they be if they had another 6 big time international prospects in the pipeline?

 

[Enscheff]

I brought it up before, but they failed in their timeline of initiating their rebuild, I don't see how you can say they've managed their rebuild 100% perfectly when they blew a golden chance to murder the international market before the new set of rules was in place.

The Braves got Maitan+Severino+Soto+Pena+Contreas+Del Rosario+Guiterrez for less than what the Sox paid Luis Robert.

I do think the Sox did very well with dealing their prime assets, but they missed a big opportunity internationally that the Braves/Padres capitalized on. Time will tell what those prospects become, but both the Padres and Braves and the Yankees several years earlier exploited the old system to add a huge influx of talent, its just something the Sox didn't do. As good as their returns from those trades have been, how much better would they be if they had another 6 big time international prospects in the pipeline?

I think you need to re-check your dates. The Braves signed those J2 guys while the Sox were still in contention. No team blows it up in the middle of a season where they are contending.

From the moment they decided to rebuild, the Sox have clearly followed a superior process than the Braves followed.