"But He's Not Ready"

[Horsehide Harry]

But HH.. the FO has control over contract negotiations and can control service time. They can't control how good or bad a player will perform. At the time of the trade HO was hitting .300+ IIRC... sure his age and lack of experience comes into question.. but they still don't control how he performs on and off the field.

they can completely control how long and how much they will offer Swanson to retain him.. or how they will handle or not handle how they will replace him.

I agree that they can't control how an individual player performs but they are responsible for acquiring the player to start with. Talent acquisition and management is a function of the FO and team manager. If a player at the ML level is faring badly, he doesn't get the option of whether he will be demoted to AAA.

 

[smootness]

I agree that they can't control how an individual player performs but they are responsible for acquiring the player to start with. Talent acquisition and management is a function of the FO and team manager. If a player at the ML level is faring badly, he doesn't get the option of whether he will be demoted to AAA.

Sure, but they're two different aspects of a FO. Every FO makes trades and signings that don't work out. The Olivera trade was terrible, and many people hated it at the time it was made (me included). But just as our side was disastrous, the other side also hasn't really performed well to this point, and it doesn't look like we gave up much. It happens, you take a risk.

The other is just spreadsheet calculations, essentially. It is also a calculated risk, but in a different context.

 

[yeezus]

I don't agree with that at all. Both are functions of management (with the exception of hitting a woman) in putting the best team on the field year after year.

At the risk of getting dragged back into this quagmire of an argument, what I think Enscheff is upset about, what I was upset about before moving on, is that the service time argument is completely different than his short or long term ability argument.

The thing is, everyone understands this. But when a differing opinion was offered, enscheff called everyone who had one an idiot. And I still think it's dumb to the call the FO moronic for calling him up and using control years as the only basis of that argument.

 

[Enscheff]

I don't agree with that at all. Both are functions of management (with the exception of hitting a woman) in putting the best team on the field year after year.

At the risk of getting dragged back into this quagmire of an argument, what I think Enscheff is upset about, what I was upset about before moving on, is that the service time argument is completely different than his short or long term ability argument.

I have yet to see anywhere that someone has opined that Swanson sucks, will suck or may suck in the future. I have seen, and said, that starting his service time now is a gamble that could have negative impact on his development if it is a gamble that isn't won.

The service time issue has very little to do with performance. It is a fact that playing this year means that he will be a FA earlier than if he didn't play until after the season starts next season, as the rules are currently established in the CBA. The possibility that the CBA may change that doesn't change the fact that it is the way it is now. The possibility that it may make no difference in the long run because Swanson may sign an extension, may not be good enough for it to be a concern, or the Braves might be sold to the second coming of George Steinbrenner, doesn't change the fact.

What is frustrating is when someone says the Sun rises everyday in the east and arguments are made against it by saying the sun is hotter in the summer and that can't be denied! And then it pisses people off when you get people pointing out that the Summer is hot after every 100 degree day in July so, obviously, anyone who thinks the sun rises in the east doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.

And then you get special threads (like this one) started celebrating the fact that Summer is hot by those that believe they achieve some form of benefit from the E-cred that they gain. I say, take your E-Victory lap. But a word of caution, the track is circular and the rabbit isn't real.

This is exactly my point, even if the metaphor was a bit lame haha. When people use non-facts, or facts that have no relation to the discussion at hand, to back their point, they are an idiot.

The discussion at hand over Swanson was that calling him up now will either make him $10M more expensive during his age 29 season, or will cause the Braves to lose him entirely after his age 28 season to FA. That is an undeniable fact. It is also logical to deduce (though not a fact because it is speculative) that both Swanson and the Braves will be better during his age 29 season than they are right now, therefore we should prefer to have Swanson on the MLB club at that future point than currently.

If you think getting Swanson experience at the MLB level will make him develop better/faster at the MLB level, that IS a valid point that directly backs up his promotion.

If you point out how well he is doing now, that does NOT back up a counter point because that point is not counter to the original premise. If you say they will just extend him, that also isn't counter to the original premise because he will still be more expensive than he would have been. If you say they will have more money at that point in time, again, that isn't counter to the original premise. If you say he is boosting attendance now and that extra revenue makes up for either losing his age 29 season or paying more for it, you are using non-facts to back your argument (attendance boost is likely due to things like the team playing better and Turner Field closing).

 

[clvclv]

This is exactly my point, even if the metaphor was a bit lame haha. When people use non-facts, or facts that have no relation to the discussion at hand, to back their point, they are an idiot.

The discussion at hand over Swanson was that calling him up now will either make him $10M more expensive during his age 29 season, or will cause the Braves to lose him entirely after his age 28 season to FA. That is an undeniable fact. It is also logical to deduce (though not a fact because it is speculative) that both Swanson and the Braves will be better during his age 29 season than they are right now, therefore we should prefer to have Swanson on the MLB club at that future point than currently.

If you think getting Swanson experience at the MLB level will make him develop better/faster at the MLB level, that IS a valid point that directly backs up his promotion.

If you point out how well he is doing now, that does NOT back up a counter point because that point is not counter to the original premise. If you say they will just extend him, that also isn't counter to the original premise because he will still be more expensive than he would have been. If you say they will have more money at that point in time, again, that isn't counter to the original premise. If you say he is boosting attendance now and that extra revenue makes up for either losing his age 29 season or paying more for it, you are using non-facts to back your argument (attendance boost is likely due to things like the team playing better and Turner Field closing).

That might be the discussion you continually want to have - unfortunately that has absolutely nothing to do with his readiness at the time he was called up. It also completely discounts the fact that they said HE would dictate his arrival date, and service-time concerns would have no bearing on that decision whatsoever.

You've chosen to try to spin all discussion about Swanson into just another swipe at the brass for not understanding the situation that at least 75% of the posters here understand every bit as much as you do. The funniest part of your chosen discussion is that you keep referencing "facts" that simply don't exist while continuing to talk about logic. There's one FACT about the situation - he will likely be a Super-Two qualifier. Beyond that, nothing you've said about what may happen six years from now is nothing other than your opinion - and that doesn't make it a "fact" in anyone's mind other than your own. The $10 million you keep tossing around is baseless - you don't know what's going to happen with the new CBA anymore than anyone else does. You're "guessing" that he won't be signed prior to that magical season - again, not a fact. All those things would be absolutely fine - if you had enough sense to explain them as your opinion. It's certainly a valid opinion - but nothing about it is a "fact" today (or was the day he was called up).

Of course, you guys want to hijack the thread to try to "prove" that you know more than someone else - when you simply don't. It had absolutely nothing to do with your discussion. The thread title mentioned his readiness and the original post asked how bad you feel if you said that.

 

[Enscheff]

That might be the discussion you continually want to have - unfortunately that has absolutely nothing to do with his readiness at the time he was called up. It also completely discounts the fact that they said HE would dictate his arrival date, and service-time concerns would have no bearing on that decision whatsoever.

You've chosen to try to spin all discussion about Swanson into just another swipe at the brass for not understanding the situation that at least 75% of the posters here understand every bit as much as you do. The funniest part of your chosen discussion is that you keep referencing "facts" that simply don't exist while continuing to talk about logic. There's one FACT about the situation - he will likely be a Super-Two qualifier. Beyond that, nothing you've said about what may happen six years from now is nothing other than your opinion - and that doesn't make it a "fact" in anyone's mind other than your own. The $10 million you keep tossing around is baseless - you don't know what's going to happen with the new CBA anymore than anyone else does. You're "guessing" that he won't be signed prior to that magical season - again, not a fact. All those things would be absolutely fine - if you had enough sense to explain them as your opinion. It's certainly a valid opinion - but nothing about it is a "fact" today (or was the day he was called up).

Of course, you guys want to hijack the thread to try to "prove" that you know more than someone else - when you simply don't. It had absolutely nothing to do with your discussion. The thread title mentioned his readiness and the original post asked how bad you feel if you said that.

This is precisely what I mean. The part I bolded is factually not true. You continue to argue about this stuff like you have a clue, but this clear demonstration proves that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Swanson accrued less than 50 days of service time this year because he was called up in mid-August, way after the typical cutoff of mid-June.

I mean seriously, do you even understand how calling Swanson up now affects his team control in his age 29 season? Because you certainly don't understand Super 2 status.

ETA: I just scanned the first 3 pages of the thread you linked. Not a single person said it was a bad move because Swanson wasn't ready. All posters against it cited service time issues. So again, you created a new topic to post arguing against a point NOBODY made. Another case of you demonstrating the fact you can't even understand the debate you are taking part in.

 

[GovClintonTyree]

Someone isn't an idiot because they disagree with me. Someone is an idiot when they use non-facts to back up their position, or when they don't even understand the argument that is swirling on around them.

Did you miss the point of the argument? I'm guessing you did, which means you are, in fact, an idiot. Did you use non-facts to back up your claim? If so, again, idiot.

Clv still thinks most folks contend "Swanson sucks", and went so far as to start an entirely new thread arguing against it. The very existence of this thread is proof clv doesn't understand the argument going on with respect to Swanson being called up. Therefore, he is an idiot.

Enscheff, how's your life? You doing okay? It really isn't healthy to be this worked up about - well, anything. Or nothing.

You might want to look at your overall wellness and try and address what's missing. Perhaps you aren't being fed spiritually, or you need to make some work-life balance adjustments, or diet-exercise, or some combination.