Race

McCann'sCans said:
I would imagine because there aren't particularly high barriers to accessing a job in sanitation where the majority of workers have a high school degree and don't need to know someone to get a job.

I know this was a stupid straw man argument that you didn't mean seriously, but I'm obliged to tell you that +/- about two percentage points per race, sanitation workers in America are almost perfectly representative of races in America. I'm sure you'll be thrilled.
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But why isn't there equal representation of women, who are physically and emotionally exactly the same as men?
 
sturg33 said:
But why isn't there equal representation of women, who are physically and emotionally exactly the same as men?
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First of all, no one ever said women were physically and emotionally the same as men. Love when you throw random crap in your responses.

Second of all, this is a good point. We shouldn't require that all industries have equal representation. But, we should have equity in opportunity. Are you suggesting that the reason there are so many more white male CEOs is that black people and women just don't have an interest in being CEOs?
 
McCann'sCans said:
First of all, no one ever said women were physically and emotionally the same as men. Love when you throw random crap in your responses.

Second of all, this is a good point. We shouldn't require that all industries have equal representation. But, we should have equity in opportunity. Are you suggesting that the reason there are so many more white male CEOs is that black people and women just don't have an interest in being CEOs?
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I’m wondering where all these companies are that don’t go out of their way to hire minorities and women.

There may be some small shops that are bad but almost all of the largest companies in the world are BEGGING to get more minority hirings. To say this is a racism issue does great disservice to the actual solutions.
 
So 86% of Fortune 500 CEOs are white men. 93% of Fortune 500 CEOs are white. There has to be a reason for this. If you are arguing it is because black people and women are dumber, don't try as hard, aren't interested in being CEOs, etc. that is fine, I just want to understand the argument if you're saying it has nothing to do with systemic issues of discrimination.

For historical context, 96% of Fortune 500 CEOs were white men in 2000. So we are certainly improving and moving in the right direction. Or I guess black people are getting smarter? Women are getting more motivated?
 
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Where is the discrimination if these companies are going out of their way to hire minorities? That’s what I’m trying to understand. Do you have a listing of competent black executives that have been denied jobs?
 
thethe said:
Where is the discrimination if these companies are going out of their way to hire minorities? That’s what I’m trying to understand. Do you have a listing of competent black executives that have been denied jobs?
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So you're suggesting that all of those workers that companies bend over backward to hire are too incompetent to rise into leadership positions? I don't think that's what you're trying to say, but I don't see an alternative explanation if discrimination is not part of it.
 
Those people which are hired will have a natural progression. No white man without experience will become a Fortune 500 CEO either.
 
McCann'sCans said:
I'm not sure the sports analogy is apt. With years of performance to analyze by the time athletes are drafted, very easy to determine if an athlete is bigger, faster, stronger, etc.- very few other industries operate this way. Job interviews- in the vast majority of industries- are significantly more subjective than talent evaluations in sports are. There is much more room for bias and error. In the case of NBA vs. MLB, I have to imagine that the pipeline of white American high school basketball players is similar to (or larger than) the pipeline of black American basketball players. The black athletes tend to be more talented, and they move up in the sport. In MLB, the pipeline of white American baseball players dramatically outpaces the pipeline of black American baseball players, and that has nothing to do with the ability to throw hard or hit a ball far.

But, if you want me to appeal to your more rational side, how about because there is significant research to demonstrate that having a diverse team leads to better economic outcomes for a business?

https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-i...clusion/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters#
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sianbeilock/2019/04/04/how-diversity-leads-to-better-outcomes/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikla...ity-inclusion-better-decision-making-at-work/
https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Given that, it makes sense for race to be a factor in hiring decisions to some extent. No one is suggesting that companies should hire a completely unqualified minority candidate over a white candidate, but it makes a great case for ensuring you have a diverse pipeline and considering diversity when you're making a decision on the margins. And yes, this means representative diversity of all types, not just white vs. black.
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I guess my point is, I don't believe that Asians are more capable than non Hispanic whites are more capable than Hispanic whites are more capable than blacks are more capable than Native Americans. As someone else alluded to, I do think cultural issues come into play, but there is nothing superior or inferior from one race to the next.

Now if that's true, diversity should be a natural result of color blind selection processes, whether it's job hiring or college admissions. We can say that racism or discrimination will prevent that in some cases, but I also know of a tech shop that consists of about 20 black guys and a couple of cute white girls. So that's going to cut both ways. If diversity actually is a strength, then the free market should punish those who fight it.

I will say I always find it odd to see diversity touted as a strength and then cultural or racial homogeneity touted as a reason for the success and low crime rates of places like Scandinavia.
 
Jaw said:
I guess my point is, I don't believe that Asians are more capable than non Hispanic whites are more capable than Hispanic whites are more capable than blacks are more capable than Native Americans. As someone else alluded to, I do think cultural issues come into play, but there is nothing superior or inferior from one race to the next.

Now if that's true, diversity should be a natural result of color blind selection processes, whether it's job hiring or college admissions. We can say that racism or discrimination will prevent that in some cases, but I also know of a tech shop that consists of about 20 black guys and a couple of cute white girls. So that's going to cut both ways. If diversity actually is a strength, then the free market should punish those who fight it.

I will say I always find it odd to see diversity touted as a strength and then cultural or racial homogeneity touted as a reason for the success and low crime rates of places like Scandinavia.
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A couple of things. Totally agree that if there are differences between races, they have little to do with innate ability and much to do with cultural differences. I would argue that while some of those cultural differences are driven by choice, some are driven by circumstance.

But, regarding your second point, diversity is only a natural result of a color-blind selection process if the pipeline is sufficiently diverse, which is what I was saying earlier. Otherwise, your color-blind selection process can very easily lead you to a team of white dudes because they are the only ones who apply, in which case you miss out on the very diversity that was supposed to be the intent of your color-blind process. Even if the pipeline is diverse, I would also suggest that 'color blind' is something that only occurs in the most progressive HR organizations, but not at most places. A truly color-blind process at a university doesn't include a test like the SAT that clearly advantages wealthy students who can afford a tutor (glad quite a few schools are dropping this requirement), and it doesn't allow for things like legacy admissions (of which I am a beneficiary). A truly color-blind process at a business doesn't target exclusively elite colleges or business schools (again, of which I am a beneficiary), removes names and other information that could drive bias from resumes before the screening process, etc.

As for the last point, the reason diversity is a strength for businesses is because it challenges opinions and introduces new ways of thinking. It ensures that companies don't just do things the way they've always done them, and it requires them to sometimes navigate discomfort in order to innovate. I spend the most time at work with people who are the most like me because that is where I'm comfortable, but I learn the most from people who are the most different from me and challenge my way of thinking. Ultimately the conflict created by diversity is what leads to real business impact.

I'm not totally sure what the impact of diversity is on societal crime rates or how that connects to the value of diversity for businesses, but I would argue that crime rates are low in Scandinavian countries largely because they have very low population density, very different views on policing (rehabilitation vs. imprisonment), very little disparity between rich and poor, and a very strong social safety net that means very few people in their society are desperate.
 
So Shaun King is finally being called out for being a liar and a culture vulture? **** that guy. He’s always been a piece of **** playing the race card and dividing people.
 
"The drop in life expectancy was disproportionately high among Black and Hispanic Americans, declining by 3.88 years among Hispanic people and 3.25 years among Black people compared to 1.36 years among white people."

“For decades, the US has been losing ground in life expectancy to other wealthy nations, and these findings show that the gap widened even more due to Covid-19,” he said in a statement. “The study further confirms that how long people live in the United States depends in large part on income, skin color, and geography.”

https://thehill.com/policy/healthca...fe-expectancy-especially-for-blacks-hispanics

Since some on this board are insistent that there is no such thing as systemic inequities based on race, I assume you believe these numbers simply demonstrate that white people have naturally stronger immune systems than minorities?
 
McCann'sCans said:
"The drop in life expectancy was disproportionately high among Black and Hispanic Americans, declining by 3.88 years among Hispanic people and 3.25 years among Black people compared to 1.36 years among white people."

“For decades, the US has been losing ground in life expectancy to other wealthy nations, and these findings show that the gap widened even more due to Covid-19,” he said in a statement. “The study further confirms that how long people live in the United States depends in large part on income, skin color, and geography.”

https://thehill.com/policy/healthca...fe-expectancy-especially-for-blacks-hispanics

Since some on this board are insistent that there is no such thing as systemic inequities based on race, I assume you believe these numbers simply demonstrate that white people have naturally stronger immune systems than minorities?
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to be fair life expectancy among working class whites (google "deaths of despair") was dropping faster than any other group before covid...so covid helped even things out a bit
 
sturg33 said:
No I believe white people have more money than black and hispanic people
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Nailed it! So let's follow that logic with a multiple-choice game. Black and Hispanic people have less money than white people because:

A) They are stupid.
B) They don't work hard.
C) White people are more skilled.
D) We live in a country where white people have historically controlled all of the wealth and power, and we haven't come close to unraveling the systemic issues that arise from a history of inequality.
 
McCann'sCans said:
Nailed it! So let's follow that logic with a multiple-choice game. Black and Hispanic people have less money than white people because:

A) They are stupid.
B) They don't work hard.
C) White people are more skilled.
D) We live in a country where white people have historically controlled all of the wealth and power, and we haven't come close to unraveling the systemic issues that arise from a history of inequality.
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There is not an answer i can give you that won't have you scurrying to "but why is it like that! Its systemic!!"

For example, in 2021, the greatest correlating attribute of future success (non criminal, college degree, more money) is growing up in a two parent household.

4/5 blacks today are born to unwed mothers. Thats more than 3x what it was during Jim crow.

I'm sure you'll go straight to systemic and historical racism, but the trend is not your friend here.

And yes, white people founding the richest country in world history probably will benefit white people quite a bit over the following the centuries. Luckily, this country has given more wealth to black and brown people than any other country in the world, also.

So you post something about covid deaths affecting black and brown people worse... what is your proposed solution, today, in 2021?
 
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