REAL FOOTBALL Thread

Orakpo couldn't hold up as a 4-3 DE at the point of attack.

Johnson is a 4-3 DE that is a very good run stopping DE; actually one of the best. But, he cant rush the passer.
 
gilesfan said:
Orakpo couldn't hold up as a 4-3 DE at the point of attack.

Johnson is a 4-3 DE that is a very good run stopping DE; actually one of the best. But, he cant rush the passer.
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It's easier to move from a 3-4 rush edge to a 4-3 DE than maybe any other position on defense except a 4-3 SLB to a 3-4 drop OLB.

Johnson is great at stopping the run. Absolute force. But who could they have gotten that would have been better? I ddin't see anyone out there.

Johnson is underrated massively. And the bucs now have a front 4 of McCoy, Spence, Johnson and Clayborn. Though maybe Gholston will earn his spot.
 
It issn't that Johnson is a bad player. But, they are giving him a ton of money to be a run stopping DE, not a game changing type player.

The point is Orakpo and Johnson are completely different players and shouldn't be looked at as viable options for the same spot.

Depending on cost, Lamar Houston isn't that much different as a player than Johnson and if they could get him for much cheaper, maybe he's a better option.
 
gilesfan said:
So, its 2014 and you still don't understand how NFL contracts work?
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24M guaranteed is about 7M more than Cameron's his guarantee per year is about the same. The guarantee is a bit higher, but most top players don't get cut in the first half of their contract.
 
gilesfan said:
BTw, Michael Bennet, a much better player than Johnson got 4 yr 28.5 M/16 M guaranteed.
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Bennett's deal even before the Johnson deal was announced was heralded as a massive bargain. He was expected by many to sign for about 10M per year or more to be in the range of Jared Allen, Charles Johnson or Trent Cole.
 
Volin then provides a look at the top 20 pass rush guaranteed contract numbers:

1. Mario Williams (2012) - $50 million over 6 years
2. Elvis Dumervil (2010) - $43.156 million over 6 years
3. Julius Peppers (2010) - $42 million over 6 years
4. DeMarcus Ware (2009) - $40 million over 7 years
5. Terrell Suggs (2009) - $38.1 million over 6 years
6. Tamba Hali (2011) - $35 million over 5 years
7. Charles Johnson (2011) - $32 million over 6 years
8. Jared Allen (2008) - $31 million over 6 years
9. Dwight Freeney (2007) - $30 million over 6 years
10. Lamarr Woodley (2011) - $22.5 million over 6 years*
11. Calvin Pace (2008) - $21.5 million over 6 years
12. Cameron Wake (2012) - $20.665 million over 5 years
12. James Harrison (2009) - $20 million over 6 years
12. Justin Smith (2008) - $20 million over 6 years
15. Robert Mathis (2012) - $17 million over 4 years
16. Chris Canty (2009) - $16 million over 6 years
17. Trent Cole (2012) - $15 million over 6 years
18. Red Bryant (2012) - $14.5 million over 5 years
19. Antonio Smith (2009) - $12.5 million over 5 years
20. Kyle Vanden Bosch (2010) - $10 million over 4 years

PS, Why are you looking at total dollars per year? You really need to study NFL contracts.
 
If it's the Johnson of last year or 09-10 then it's an overpay. If it's the MJ of 11-12 (mostly 12) then it's a great contract. More than likely he will be somewhere in the middle and it will be an average contract.
 
gilesfan said:
Volin then provides a look at the top 20 pass rush guaranteed contract numbers:

1. Mario Williams (2012) - $50 million over 6 years
2. Elvis Dumervil (2010) - $43.156 million over 6 years
3. Julius Peppers (2010) - $42 million over 6 years
4. DeMarcus Ware (2009) - $40 million over 7 years
5. Terrell Suggs (2009) - $38.1 million over 6 years
6. Tamba Hali (2011) - $35 million over 5 years
7. Charles Johnson (2011) - $32 million over 6 years
8. Jared Allen (2008) - $31 million over 6 years
9. Dwight Freeney (2007) - $30 million over 6 years
10. Lamarr Woodley (2011) - $22.5 million over 6 years*
11. Calvin Pace (2008) - $21.5 million over 6 years
12. Cameron Wake (2012) - $20.665 million over 5 years
12. James Harrison (2009) - $20 million over 6 years
12. Justin Smith (2008) - $20 million over 6 years
15. Robert Mathis (2012) - $17 million over 4 years
16. Chris Canty (2009) - $16 million over 6 years
17. Trent Cole (2012) - $15 million over 6 years
18. Red Bryant (2012) - $14.5 million over 5 years
19. Antonio Smith (2009) - $12.5 million over 5 years
20. Kyle Vanden Bosch (2010) - $10 million over 4 years

PS, Why are you looking at total dollars per year? You really need to study NFL contracts.
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Because guys who're Johnson's age usually see much more than their guarantee. What are the odds he's cut before turning 30 unless he totally tanks? Guarantee is for flexibility. APY is more important for younger players who usually make it through their 20s without being cut. Not always the case of course.

Do you realize that between guarantee and base is where the truth is.
 
BRule said:
If it's the Johnson of last year or 09-10 then it's an overpay. If it's the MJ of 11-12 (mostly 12) then it's a great contract. More than likely he will be somewhere in the middle and it will be an average contract.
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He should be a solid player if he continues stopping the run like he has in the past. I believe this past year was the first year he was positive in pass rushing. If he can become a better pass rusher, the contract won't be an albatross, but that may be asking a lot.
 
gilesfan said:
He should be a solid player if he continues stopping the run like he has in the past. I believe this past year was the first year he was positive in pass rushing. If he can become a better pass rusher, the contract won't be an albatross, but that may be asking a lot.
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He's average to above average as a pass rusher lately. He isn't terrible aainst the rush, and he's amazing against the run. Tons of positive value. Of course that being said aside from Carolina, a more passrushing DE fits what they'll face in the division.
 
zitothebrave said:
Because guys who're Johnson's age usually see much more than their guarantee. What are the odds he's cut before turning 30 unless he totally tanks? Guarantee is for flexibility. APY is more important for younger players who usually make it through their 20s without being cut. Not always the case of course.

Do you realize that between guarantee and base is where the truth is.
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Base contract essentially means nothing in the NFL. It all depends on guaranteed and how the contract is constructed. Its crazy that as big of an NFL fan as you are, you don't understand NFL contracts. They very well could have backloaded Johnsons contract so his contract is really 3 yrs and the large base figures for year 4 and 5 mean nothing. You realize the odds that Johnson isn't cut or his contract isn't restructured within the next 5 years is awfully low, right?

You could take an agents word for it, if you like.

The total value of a contract is somewhat meaningless because NFL contracts aren't fully guaranteed. The most important metrics are compensation in the first three years of a multiyear deal and the amount of guaranteed money. The general rule of thumb is a player with a long-term contract should make it through the first three years unless the contract has a team-friendly structure and he performs poorly.

Cameron Wake will likely be cut or resturctured after this year (unless he blows up and then who knows how he acts) His contract is essentially 3 yrs 17 million with 2 large base year numbers in 2015 and 2106.
 
zitothebrave said:
He's average to above average as a pass rusher lately. He isn't terrible aainst the rush, and he's amazing against the run. Tons of positive value. Of course that being said aside from Carolina, a more passrushing DE fits what they'll face in the division.
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PFF rates that Johnson has positive pass rushing numbers in 1 year of his career.
 
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