Religious Right in Arizona Cheer bill that allows them to not act like Jesus would...

goldfly said:
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no better than these people
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I am sorry you think that.
 
Hawk said:
A shamefully small-minded approach.
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i am fine with you and bedell thinking that when it comes to this issue

the more i see the right wing in this country act, the more they are like the muslims they say they hate in the middle east

just evolved in a different way.
 
goldfly said:
i am fine with you and bedell thinking that when it comes to this issue

the more i see the right wing in this country act, the more they are like the muslims they say they hate in the middle east

just evolved in a different way.
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I never heard anyone say they hated gays, quite the opposite, I think the only thing they said was, like me, we don't agree with the religious MARRIAGE part of the equation. I am for 100% unions or Federal Government recognition of marriage, but under God they are not married. I have gay friends and gay family members, they understand the difference between a religious marriage and government marriage contract. They accept it from those who voice their opinions and they do not wish for us to change our stance. They also understand certain members of the family looks down on them and their way of life, but they have enough intestinal fortitude to accept it and not cause drama as well, meaning what is between them stays at their home and the topic is off limits in a family environment.
 
BedellBrave said:
"Gay Americans, like many members of minority groups, are poorly served by their self-styled leadership. Like feminists and union bosses, the leaders of the nation’s gay organizations suffer from oppression envy, likening their situation to that of black Americans — as though having to find a gay-friendly wedding planner (pro tip: try swinging a dead cat) were the moral equivalent of having spent centuries in slavery and systematic oppression under Jim Crow. Their goal is not toleration or even equal rights but official victim-group status under law and in civil society, allowing them to use the courts and other means of official coercion to impose their own values upon those who hold different values."
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In general, my antennae are well attuned to specious comparisons with Jim Crow discrimination and the Civil Rights movement, but I find this to be a cavalier and disingenuous dismissal. Of course, the section I bolded above sounds ridiculous, but to say that it's constructed of straw is putting it mildly. Gay americans have been systematically discriminated against, deemed criminals, victimized by crime based on their sexual orientation, classified as mentally ill, and prohibited from openly taking part in large segments of society. To subscribe to the above thinking sounds rather small-minded and dismissive of the very real discrimination and demonization that homosexuals have faced.

allowing them to use the courts and other means of official coercion to impose their own values upon those who hold different values.

Maybe, but that certainly applies to many interest groups, including organized Christian opponents of gay marriage.

So, this seems to be the playbook: Don't say anything inflammatory about gays. Instead, criticize the equality movement and its leaders as excessive. Claim that opponents of equality are the ones being discriminated against, and appeal to "fairness" on those grounds. Use the Civil Rights movement as a wedge issue. Say that gays want "special rights."

The funny thing is, all of those tactics (except the Civil Rights one) were deployed during opposition to policies designed to help the African-American community, once overt racism became passe.
 
Well, I see this thread quickly went down the toilet with they typical accusations of bigotry. Crump certainly took the personal attack to a whole new level though, so that's interesting.

:Sad:
 
weso1 said:
Well, I see this thread quickly went down the toilet with they typical accusations of bigotry. Crump certainly took the personal attack to a whole new level though, so that's interesting.
:Sad:
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What did you expect? If you are not 100% down with accepting or submitting, you are a bigot according to the left, there is no respect, no compromising with them. They are as much of a bigot as those who they say against.

Left doesn't believe in respecting someone opinions that is different than theirs. Their way or no way.
 
weso1 said:
Well, I see this thread quickly went down the toilet with they typical accusations of bigotry. Crump certainly took the personal attack to a whole new level though, so that's interesting.
:Sad:
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where?
 
Julio3000 said:
In general, my antennae are well attuned to specious comparisons with Jim Crow discrimination and the Civil Rights movement, but I find this to be a cavalier and disingenuous dismissal. Of course, the section I bolded above sounds ridiculous, but to say that it's constructed of straw is putting it mildly. Gay americans have been systematically discriminated against, deemed criminals, victimized by crime based on their sexual orientation, classified as mentally ill, and prohibited from openly taking part in large segments of society. To subscribe to the above thinking sounds rather small-minded and dismissive of the very real discrimination and demonization that homosexuals have faced.

allowing them to use the courts and other means of official coercion to impose their own values upon those who hold different values.

Maybe, but that certainly applies to many interest groups, including organized Christian opponents of gay marriage.

So, this seems to be the playbook: Don't say anything inflammatory about gays. Instead, criticize the equality movement and its leaders as excessive. Claim that opponents of equality are the ones being discriminated against, and appeal to "fairness" on those grounds. Use the Civil Rights movement as a wedge issue. Say that gays want "special rights."

The funny thing is, all of those tactics (except the Civil Rights one) were deployed during opposition to policies designed to help the African-American community, once overt racism became passe.
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Interesting.
 
AerchAngel said:
Considering the amount of HATE thrown to the Right or religious followers.......yeah. This board is proof of that.
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you're mistaking the "HATE" of the right and religious followers"

it is hating making your religious ideas as law for everyone to follow

i thought that was a pretty simple idea to follow

i honestly don't care if in your personal life if you believe that homosexuals are going to hell and are deserving of being treated different. you can believe that. just like how racists can feel the same about blacks or mexicans. don't try to pass laws to treat people different though

that is where i have problem

but i give credit, keep playing the persecution. it's as if you believe people just made this "hate" out of thin air and none of the actions led to this "hate"
 
goldfly said:
you're mistaking the "HATE" of the right and religious followers"

it is hating making your religious ideas as law for everyone to follow

i thought that was a pretty simple idea to follow

i honestly don't care if in your personal life if you believe that homosexuals are going to hell and are deserving of being treated different. you can believe that. just like how racists can feel the same about blacks or mexicans. don't try to pass laws to treat people different though

that is where i have problem

but i give credit, keep playing the persecution. it's as if you believe people just made this "hate" out of thin air and none of the actions led to this "hate"
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I never said I hated anyone, I never said anything that is classify as hating, all I said is that I do not agree with gays getting married in the church, that is all. I said, many times I might add, that government sponsored marriage/union is acceptable but when you start intruding up my religious rights, that is where I have a problem.

Do you think a Jew should be forced to allow a Nazi to cut their hair, serve them food, or vice versa, or that pork is the only dish served at a wedding for Muslims. Do you think it is right for the government to FORCE you to give up your religious rights to allow a another group to have their way. There is a reason for separation of government and church. The church should exercise their rights and some allow it some don't but at least they have that right. The church I grew up doesn't and never will as blacks have a hard time even under government rules about it, I know, I have family that are gay and still not fully accepted and they are Democrats to the core. I am not a Democrat nor Republican accept them as gays and don't mind them marrying under government rules.

That is what I meant by compromising. I say marriage under government auspices is okay, but you want everything.

Hate is something that is coming from you. You hate the idea that I will not accept or submit to your wrong way of thinking, aka force a person to do something they morally are against based on religious principals and not compromising to the overall benefit of societ. It is not going to hurt a gay person if they married under government rule (at least the ones I know have no issue with it), not one bit, they get all the benefits as a straight couple and then some. There is no hate in that, but there is hate from your side because I and others do no welcome them in a religious frame of mind and not be pressured to accept or submit to your will or thinking.

Lastly, I am not a judge nor ever will be so whatever you want to do with your life is yours. I have no say so. Also I will not force you to accept or submit to my thinking, unlike you. I have my opinions and feelings and they stay with me. What I think about gays is a far cry from what you think, a very far cry. They are people just like you and me but when it comes to religion everyone of them have their boundaries and all most respect those boundaries. Do you think it upsets me that Catholics will not allow me to have communion? No, doesn't bother me one bit, but it should. It is their rules and I accept it. Should I be mad that Muslims won't allow me to eat bacon? No, it is their rules. It has been their rules for a very long time. People honor those rules and do not scream and cry bigotry, racism, sexism or what not. They have been establish a very long time ago and you just want them to just throw them away.

Take the compromise, you get what you want, but the church may or may not give you what you want, those are the breaks.
 
Government intervention in marriage has to do with how it applies to government employees and benefits. I don't think legislators or judges care who kisses who(m) - but their involvement comes when the privileges of marriage such as hospital visitation, leave and sick time for spouse , next of kin etc.

Government intervention in marriage is legally no more than the above. Christians howling about the LBGT leadership or some other such nonsense is like goldfly says, crying the victim.
Lets keep a running tab of issues where the Christian Right claims victim-hood

1) Civil Rights of women,gays races or even religions being seen on equal footing of Christianity

2) The Unborn --- that discussion is tiresome. The issue was legally solved 40 years ago and is ingrained in everyday life. The fetus is not a child but a part of a woman's anatomy until the chord is cut.
The only reason Goober puts those idiotic license plates or proposal denying a woman the right to decide what happens in her body is because Big Business gins up the fever to get elected anti Regulation candidates. That, talk the "Pro Life" talk

3) Youth culture in general. Video games and Rap Culture. There hasn't been a "Rap Culture" for 20 years

4) Weapon Regulation- never could draw the parallel between the Christian Right and their love affair with NRA or other weapon lobbies. Perhaps some enlightened soul can help here

5) Environmental Regulations - this makes no sense. Why would a normal person have such strong opinions on climate science. Funny thing is most of those talking the loudest probably got a C in high school science. It's Friday - C+

6) Unions - have taken away their right to work 80 hour weeks in unsafe factories and doesn't allow them to send their 10 or 12 year olds off to the coal mines.
 
one of the most insane conversations i have when i am out of the country is trying to explain the right wing in this country to people

people in Australia REALLY didn't understand it

i am asked all the time how a group that says they are Christian (predominantly in the eyes of people outside the country) can support the death penalty, be on the side of big business, not be on the side of the workers and the poor, be pro gun, pro war, against welfare and helping kids that are born into poverty and think locking up drug users is the way to go. for starter topics of the conversations i have had
 
AerchAngel said:
I never said I hated anyone, I never said anything that is classify as hating, all I said is that I do not agree with gays getting married in the church, that is all. I said, many times I might add, that government sponsored marriage/union is acceptable but when you start intruding up my religious rights, that is where I have a problem.

Do you think a Jew should be forced to allow a Nazi to cut their hair, serve them food, or vice versa, or that pork is the only dish served at a wedding for Muslims. Do you think it is right for the government to FORCE you to give up your religious rights to allow a another group to have their way. There is a reason for separation of government and church. The church should exercise their rights and some allow it some don't but at least they have that right. The church I grew up doesn't and never will as blacks have a hard time even under government rules about it, I know, I have family that are gay and still not fully accepted and they are Democrats to the core. I am not a Democrat nor Republican accept them as gays and don't mind them marrying under government rules.

That is what I meant by compromising. I say marriage under government auspices is okay, but you want everything.

Hate is something that is coming from you. You hate the idea that I will not accept or submit to your wrong way of thinking, aka force a person to do something they morally are against based on religious principals and not compromising to the overall benefit of societ. It is not going to hurt a gay person if they married under government rule (at least the ones I know have no issue with it), not one bit, they get all the benefits as a straight couple and then some. There is no hate in that, but there is hate from your side because I and others do no welcome them in a religious frame of mind and not be pressured to accept or submit to your will or thinking.

Lastly, I am not a judge nor ever will be so whatever you want to do with your life is yours. I have no say so. Also I will not force you to accept or submit to my thinking, unlike you. I have my opinions and feelings and they stay with me. What I think about gays is a far cry from what you think, a very far cry. They are people just like you and me but when it comes to religion everyone of them have their boundaries and all most respect those boundaries. Do you think it upsets me that Catholics will not allow me to have communion? No, doesn't bother me one bit, but it should. It is their rules and I accept it. Should I be mad that Muslims won't allow me to eat bacon? No, it is their rules. It has been their rules for a very long time. People honor those rules and do not scream and cry bigotry, racism, sexism or what not. They have been establish a very long time ago and you just want them to just throw them away.

Take the compromise, you get what you want, but the church may or may not give you what you want, those are the breaks.
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i don't think a church should be forced to marry someone

a church i went to as a kid wouldn't marry my sister and her husband cause they lived together before marriage.
 
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