Ruiz Called Up

Jenkins and Bonifacio also called up (Lalli added earlier). Whalen and B.J. moved to 60-day DL. There will be major 40-man bottleneck this winter.
 
rico43 said:
Jenkins and Bonifacio also called up (Lalli added earlier). Whalen and B.J. moved to 60-day DL. There will be major 40-man bottleneck this winter.
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Just don't see it personally.

JMO, but I honestly see as many as a handful of non-elite arms being dealt for MLB pieces this winter. Like it or not - and this is absolutely NOT to argue the merits of the points some posters make about holding off for one more year - the performance of the offense since the Kemp acquisition combined with the new park and the (somewhat self-inflicted) pressure on the front office has likely forced the organization's hand. The Marlins were "in it" into September this year with NO PITCHING on the horizon. If the Braves are able to add a couple of legitimate rotation pieces - not even TOR-types, mind you - it's awfully hard for me to imagine that they don't picture themselves with a chance to be at least as good in 2017 as Miami was this season (without leveraging much of the future).

We've got plenty of #4/#5 types that are "ready" now - Blair/Jenkins/Gant/Ellis/Whalen/Perez - that could step into the back of the rotation for lots of teams starting next spring who can be used to get more "sure things" that can be controlled long enough to keep from rushing Pitchers with much more upside as well as ease the pressure on Folty and Wisler. The recent statements Coppy and Hart have made about the feeling that we don't "need" to look outside the organization for bullpen help this winter further leads me to believe that some of these guys are going to be moved BEFORE they're further exposed to MLB-level hitters.

If they can get proven MLB SPs that they can control long enough to buy 1-2 years worth of development time for the Newcomb/Sims/Weigel/Povse/Fried group (as well as relieve the pressure on Folty and Wisler to be important rotation options NOW) who actually have out pitches, I can't imagine the Braves will pass on that opportunity.
 
clvclv said:
Just don't see it personally.

JMO, but I honestly see as many as a handful of non-elite arms being dealt for MLB pieces this winter. Like it or not - and this is absolutely NOT to argue the merits of the points some posters make about holding off for one more year - the performance of the offense since the Kemp acquisition combined with the new park and the (somewhat self-inflicted) pressure on the front office has likely forced the organization's hand. The Marlins were "in it" into September this year with NO PITCHING on the horizon. If the Braves are able to add a couple of legitimate rotation pieces - not even TOR-types, mind you - it's awfully hard for me to imagine that they don't picture themselves with a chance to be at least as good in 2017 as Miami was this season (without leveraging much of the future).

We've got plenty of #4/#5 types that are "ready" now - Blair/Jenkins/Gant/Ellis/Whalen/Perez - that could step into the back of the rotation for lots of teams starting next spring who can be used to get more "sure things" that can be controlled long enough to keep from rushing Pitchers with much more upside as well as ease the pressure on Folty and Wisler. The recent statements Coppy and Hart have made about the feeling that we don't "need" to look outside the organization for bullpen help this winter further leads me to believe that some of these guys are going to be moved BEFORE they're further exposed to MLB-level hitters.

If they can get proven MLB SPs that they can control long enough to buy 1-2 years worth of development time for the Newcomb/Sims/Weigel/Povse/Fried group (as well as relieve the pressure on Folty and Wisler to be important rotation options NOW) who actually have out pitches, I can't imagine the Braves will pass on that opportunity.
Click to expand...

But are you arguing the merits of holding off one more year though?
 
clvclv said:
Just don't see it personally.

JMO, but I honestly see as many as a handful of non-elite arms being dealt for MLB pieces this winter. Like it or not - and this is absolutely NOT to argue the merits of the points some posters make about holding off for one more year - the performance of the offense since the Kemp acquisition combined with the new park and the (somewhat self-inflicted) pressure on the front office has likely forced the organization's hand. The Marlins were "in it" into September this year with NO PITCHING on the horizon. If the Braves are able to add a couple of legitimate rotation pieces - not even TOR-types, mind you - it's awfully hard for me to imagine that they don't picture themselves with a chance to be at least as good in 2017 as Miami was this season (without leveraging much of the future).

We've got plenty of #4/#5 types that are "ready" now - Blair/Jenkins/Gant/Ellis/Whalen/Perez - that could step into the back of the rotation for lots of teams starting next spring who can be used to get more "sure things" that can be controlled long enough to keep from rushing Pitchers with much more upside as well as ease the pressure on Folty and Wisler. The recent statements Coppy and Hart have made about the feeling that we don't "need" to look outside the organization for bullpen help this winter further leads me to believe that some of these guys are going to be moved BEFORE they're further exposed to MLB-level hitters.

If they can get proven MLB SPs that they can control long enough to buy 1-2 years worth of development time for the Newcomb/Sims/Weigel/Povse/Fried group (as well as relieve the pressure on Folty and Wisler to be important rotation options NOW) who actually have out pitches, I can't imagine the Braves will pass on that opportunity.
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It could get tight, but we've got a lot of guys who either be free agents or flat-out released. The following are in jeopardy of one or the other: Biddle, Cunniff, de la Cruz, Kelly, Marksberry, McKirahan, O'Flaherty, W. Perez, Roe, Weber, Lalli, Recker, Pierzynski, Beckham, d'Arnaud, Castro, Snyder, and Bonifacio. There's not a whole lot of guys who aren't on the 40-man now who have to go on. It will be tight, but I think things will shake out.
 
jpx7 said:
But are you arguing the merits of holding off one more year though?
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I'm not. Everybody has had differing opinions about that, and the reasoning on both sides is sound IMO - as long as it's handled "right". I'm all for trying to add a few pieces for next season as long as they come with short-term commitments - Ervin Santana/Jaime Garcia/Mac/etc. - as long as it can be done WITHOUT using potential long-term building blocks (Newcomb/Povse/Weigel/members of this season's Rome staff/kids drafted this year/members of this year's international class). That could even be extended to being in favor of adding a long-term commitment in Longoria (rather than go after someone out of the Desmond/Turner/Prado group so long as it could be accomplished without including those pieces as well - if you could do it with some mix of Mallex, Adonis, Ruiz, Jenkins, Ellis, Sims, etc. (possibly even including Riley).

That said, I also understand those who feel we should wait one more year. I just don't think adding the RIGHT pieces this winter is a bad thing. I certainly don't disagree with those talking about how (almost historically) bad this year's free-agent class is, and their opinions (plus the Kemp acquisition) have changed my desire to run out and grab Cespedes and Desmond just because we could afford to.

The thing is, I also don't think many people have really thought about how good the Kemp deal is for us in the long run - and the brass sure hasn't gotten much credit for what it does in that vein. Think about it, that trade...

1.) Rid us of Olivera.
2.) Added much needed pop and has had a huge impact on the offense - whether it's directly attributable to Kemp himself or not.
3.) Left plenty of financial flexibility - whether for this winter or next.

And probably most importantly (and also not discussed)...

4.) STILL leaves the organization the money to go nuts on somebody in the monster free-agent class following 2018 since both Markakis AND Kemp will come off the books by then.

I just don't see any harm in adding a couple rotation pieces who will be "out of the way" when our best arms will be arriving or someone like Mac who not only handles a staff so well but also adds pop that helps cover for a potential shortage of it at 3B. All three of those guys would be immediate upgrades, and all of them would be off the books in a short time as well. They wouldn't block anyone in our system who's close to ready, are proven commodities, and actually fit where we have needs.

You never know - stranger things have happened than a team with a decent offense and solid pitching get hot at the right time and go on a run (San Francisco, anyone?). If some of the pressure is taken off of Folty's shoulders and he finally takes that last step, I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that a rotation of Teheran/Santana/Folty/Garcia could keep opposing offenses in check enough to win a couple postseason series if the offense stepped up. They just have to get there.
 
The monster FA class follows next year, not 2018.

But I agree with what you said for the most part. And I still don't think that class will be as strong as people think by that point.
 
Rio not starting today against a righty. This is the time to give him the exposure and see what you have the last two weeks. This organization is killing me wanting to win in the last two months of a lost season.
 
clvclv said:
I'm not. Everybody has had differing opinions about that, and the reasoning on both sides is sound IMO - as long as it's handled "right". I'm all for trying to add a few pieces for next season as long as they come with short-term commitments - Ervin Santana/Jaime Garcia/Mac/etc. - as long as it can be done WITHOUT using potential long-term building blocks (Newcomb/Povse/Weigel/members of this season's Rome staff/kids drafted this year/members of this year's international class). That could even be extended to being in favor of adding a long-term commitment in Longoria (rather than go after someone out of the Desmond/Turner/Prado group so long as it could be accomplished without including those pieces as well - if you could do it with some mix of Mallex, Adonis, Ruiz, Jenkins, Ellis, Sims, etc. (possibly even including Riley).

That said, I also understand those who feel we should wait one more year. I just don't think adding the RIGHT pieces this winter is a bad thing. I certainly don't disagree with those talking about how (almost historically) bad this year's free-agent class is, and their opinions (plus the Kemp acquisition) have changed my desire to run out and grab Cespedes and Desmond just because we could afford to.

The thing is, I also don't think many people have really thought about how good the Kemp deal is for us in the long run - and the brass sure hasn't gotten much credit for what it does in that vein. Think about it, that trade...

1.) Rid us of Olivera.

2.) Added much needed pop and has had a huge impact on the offense - whether it's directly attributable to Kemp himself or not.

3.) Left plenty of financial flexibility - whether for this winter or next.

And probably most importantly (and also not discussed)...

4.) STILL leaves the organization the money to go nuts on somebody in the monster free-agent class following 2018 since both Markakis AND Kemp will come off the books by then.

I just don't see any harm in adding a couple rotation pieces who will be "out of the way" when our best arms will be arriving or someone like Mac who not only handles a staff so well but also adds pop that helps cover for a potential shortage of it at 3B. All three of those guys would be immediate upgrades, and all of them would be off the books in a short time as well. They wouldn't block anyone in our system who's close to ready, are proven commodities, and actually fit where we have needs.

You never know - stranger things have happened than a team with a decent offense and solid pitching get hot at the right time and go on a run (San Francisco, anyone?). If some of the pressure is taken off of Folty's shoulders and he finally takes that last step, I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that a rotation of Teheran/Santana/Folty/Garcia could keep opposing offenses in check enough to win a couple postseason series if the offense stepped up. They just have to get there.
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Nothing about the Kemp trade does anything helpful for Atlanta's financial flexibility until 2020, unless Coppy is somehow able to trade him without paying the bulk of his salary. In real terms he is an 18.5 million dollar salary in 2017, 2018, and 2019.

If he somehow were able to trade him without paying out more than what they would have paid Oliveira, it would be a neat trick. As it stands, they added a lot of money to the payroll to clear a dead 2020 salary.

I think he's been fine as a hitter, but I don't agree he has transformed the offense. I think that's a clear causation being confused for correlation argument.

I'm not really clear now myself whether I think adding 12 million dollars in 2017, 2018, and 2019 to the payroll in exchange for Kemp's offense is preferable to living with Oliveira's void.

In reality, this limited the financial and roster flexibility of the organization to some extent. It certainly seems to have removed the possibility that the Braves would make a huge play for Cespedes for example.
 
WaitingFor2017 said:
Rio not starting today against a righty. This is the time to give him the exposure and see what you have the last two weeks. This organization is killing me wanting to win in the last two months of a lost season.
Click to expand...

Adonis could be a good sell high candidate. I'd keep playing him if he were hot and increase his trade value. If he starts to struggle I'd put in Ruiz and say I wanted him to develop.
 
If Ruiz has a good September then it'll improve his trade value. If he has a bad September, then he's young and just getting a taste of the majors. This is a no lose situation. Don't understand anyone being upset, really.
 
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