Selling At the Deadline

McCann'sCans said:
I do think we lead MLB in quality starts over the past month, so the starting pitching at least hasn't been that bad. The bullpen is another question entirely, and Snitker's management of both starters (leaving them in too long) and relievers (putting them in the wrong situations) has undoubtedly made the pitching numbers worse.

I thought this thread was unrealistic at first, but we are 7 games out of the loss column behind a Mets team that is going to get Conforto, McNeil, Nimmo, Davis, Hunter, Carrasco, Betances, Jose Martinez, and potentially Syndegaard back this year. The fact that the gap has been widening despite them missing half of their lineup is...not a good sign. It shouldn't be a surprise if we are 12 games out in the loss column by July 1 as the Mets are getting healthier and we end up being sellers.
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Agreed. We all know how we performed last season. This team has really hit rock bottom this season in terms of performance overall and has not really shown signs of being a playoff contender this season.

Yes we have just over 100 games left and anything can happen, but it has to happen soon. I just don't see it happening. I really do feel it all starts with Freeman. Not just his average, but he doesn't seem to be the normal Freddie Freeman that keeps the clubhouse on an even plane. He doesn't seem to be enjoying the game like he usually does. The bullpen has blown too many leads to count. Heredia, Adrianza, Contreras being forced into everyday starting rolls is definitely not ideal. Contreras being forced to learn on the fly has proven to be detrimental to the team. How many passed balls, wild pitches, or unforced errors has his defense lead to runs? I'm almost at the point i'd rather call up Jonathan Lucroy and let Contreras work on his craft in Gwinnett. Not bashing on him because I do think he will eventually be really good for a long time.
 
DirkPiggler said:
That's interesting...because it seems that the Diamondbacks are able to move their players to the restricted list as needed.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mlb...2j0i22i30l2.3630j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

As are the Angels...

https://www.mlb.com/news/ty-buttrey-placed-on-restricted-list

And the Rays...

https://www.mlb.com/news/ryan-sherriff-on-rays-restricted-list

And of course, the Phillies.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/phillie...y-restricted-list-news-analysis-center-field/

From the last one, a relevant passage:

The Restricted list is a compendium of players who are out of organized baseball but are not free agents. A team can request that a player be placed on the restricted list if that player has left the team without a valid reason, or has announced his intention to retire but is still of an age or level of skill that could allow him to return to professional baseball in the future. In effect, the team states that it retains rights to the player if and when he becomes active again. The list is also used to place a player who is unavailable to play for non-baseball reasons, such as personal issues or trouble with the law.

A player on the restricted list cannot be signed by another team unless compensation is paid to the team who placed him on the list.
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You need to read your own postings. The last one you refer to explains it all. To place a player on the restricted list requires the MLB Commissioner,s approval. In this case of Ozuna, it is in the hands of the police just what Ozuna did. I know what the arrest info said but it is not proof of guilt under the law until Ozuna goes to court or pleads quilty. Therefore, the 60 day IL is the Braves best route to salary relief in order to collect insurance money. Again, read the last sentence regarding the Phillies post. I would be happy to pull and post but to my regret I have never learned how to do that.
 
There is a risk, but I think Anthopoulos sits tight through June. We're in a bit of a no-mans' land. Everything went right last year in a short season. No big injuries to key players and the team got on a roll with the bats. I wasn't expecting that again, but the team's shortcomings have shown up more readily this year and that has led to the disappointing performance. We aren't going anywhere if guys like Heredia and Adrianza get anywhere close to 300 ABs.

From his time in Toronto, Anthopoulos looks like a guy who is more than willing to trade off prospects, but I don't see our minor leagues as having that many prime pieces to use as trade chips. It's fairly deep with B-to-C+ kinds of guys and I don't know what that gets you.
 
PawPawMaxwell said:
You need to read your own postings. The last one you refer to explains it all. To place a player on the restricted list requires the MLB Commissioner,s approval. In this case of Ozuna, it is in the hands of the police just what Ozuna did. I know what the arrest info said but it is not proof of guilt under the law until Ozuna goes to court or pleads quilty. Therefore, the 60 day IL is the Braves best route to salary relief in order to collect insurance money. Again, read the last sentence regarding the Phillies post. I would be happy to pull and post but to my regret I have never learned how to do that.
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I read it, and noticed it.

If you think the commissioner wouldn't allow the Braves to put an accused and charged domestic abuser on the restricted list, you're insane.
 
DirkPiggler said:
I read it, and noticed it.

If you think the commissioner wouldn't allow the Braves to put an accused and charged domestic abuser on the restricted list, you're insane.
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Im sure the commissioner would love to resolve this issue immediately. But, what does he do with the following legal suits filed by Ozuna,s lawyers. By MLBPA. Maybe even Ozuna,s wife for the benefit of their children. You ever heard of the old saying INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
 
50PoundHead said:
There is a risk, but I think Anthopoulos sits tight through June. We're in a bit of a no-mans' land. Everything went right last year in a short season. No big injuries to key players and the team got on a roll with the bats. I wasn't expecting that again, but the team's shortcomings have shown up more readily this year and that has led to the disappointing performance. We aren't going anywhere if guys like Heredia and Adrianza get anywhere close to 300 ABs.

From his time in Toronto, Anthopoulos looks like a guy who is more than willing to trade off prospects, but I don't see our minor leagues as having that many prime pieces to use as trade chips. It's fairly deep with B-to-C+ kinds of guys and I don't know what that gets you.
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It MAY be fine to do just that, but he's still going to have to sit down and clear the air about Freeman - whatever the situation actually is. I completely agree with those who question just how much the mood in the clubhouse and whether everyone is "having fun" contributes at the end of the day since you can't actually measure it, but even the numbers-guys will admit that those intangibles DO CONTRIBUTE. They're right to question just how much, but they don't deny that it's a factor on some level.

As bravesfanforlife points out we can all see a difference in Freeman's attitude, and it's carrying over into his performance and hurting the rest of the team - will fixing that give the team enough of a bump to play .600 ball for the month? Maybe - who knows? It's certainly worth a try (and I probably should've had that as my #1 priority since you can do that without spending a dime OR any prospect capital). You do that, hope Greene gives the pen the type of boost you're expecting, and then decide whether or not to panic in a couple weeks.

The reason I'm big on trying to get Frazier and Rodriguez is that I think you can do it with the level of prospects you describe - the Vodnik/Tarnok/Grissom/Franklin types that are pretty fringy guys in our system that might be Top 10 guys in theirs.
 
PawPawMaxwell said:
Im sure the commissioner would love to resolve this issue immediately. But, what does he do with the following legal suits filed by Ozuna,s lawyers. By MLBPA. Maybe even Ozuna,s wife for the benefit of their children. You ever heard of the old saying INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
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IMO the likeliest scenario with Ozuna is that he eventually pleads guilty to a lesser charge and the felony charge is dropped. The evidence of the police witnessing the alleged assault is something that his lawyer knows is an uphill battle to convince a jury it was "self defense".

As far as the baseball side of things, GA is a right to work state, so Ozuna could be terminated for no reason. MLB can fine him, suspend him, etc. without a guilty verdict. Even if he pleads down to a lesser charge, MLB can say that his actions still violate their policies and standards, while throwing the book at him.
 
bravesfanforlife88 said:
IMO the likeliest scenario with Ozuna is that he eventually pleads guilty to a lesser charge and the felony charge is dropped. The evidence of the police witnessing the alleged assault is something that his lawyer knows is an uphill battle to convince a jury it was "self defense".

As far as the baseball side of things, GA is a right to work state, so Ozuna could be terminated for no reason. MLB can fine him, suspend him, etc. without a guilty verdict. Even if he pleads down to a lesser charge, MLB can say that his actions still violate their policies and standards, while throwing the book at him.
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To your first sentence. I agree and once that happens Manford can drop his suspension with no recourse from MLBPA or Ozuna.
To the second sentence. Until resolution arrives in court his contract is binding on the Braves. If charges get reduce to misdemeanor then best Braves can hope for is a long long suspension.
 
Placing him on the restricted list is not a proclamation of guilt, just acknowledging that he is not available to play.
 
PawPawMaxwell said:
To your first sentence. I agree and once that happens Manford can drop his suspension with no recourse from MLBPA or Ozuna.
To the second sentence. Until resolution arrives in court his contract is binding on the Braves. If charges get reduce to misdemeanor then best Braves can hope for is a long long suspension.
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His contract is binding to the Braves, however, i'm sure there is a way to suspend him without pay....The Braves lawyer was present during his hearing and will probably be present the whole way looking for ways to get out of as much money as possible.
 
PawPawMaxwell said:
Im sure the commissioner would love to resolve this issue immediately. But, what does he do with the following legal suits filed by Ozuna,s lawyers. By MLBPA. Maybe even Ozuna,s wife for the benefit of their children. You ever heard of the old saying INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
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Are you saying that each of the other examples I listed were all convicted of crimes prior to being placed on the restricted list? Or, for that matter, Hector Olivera, who was placed on the restricted list the day after his arrest for domestic violence? There is no requirement for the player to be convicted of a crime in order for him to be placed on a restricted list. Being accused of/charged with one is sufficient.
 
mfree80 said:
Placing him on the restricted list is not a proclamation of guilt, just acknowledging that he is not available to play.
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But MLB has to have an acceptable reason or MLBPA will rise up. Fortunately both parties agree on domestic violence which leaves it as a contract issue and the more or less $60M Braves are on hook for.
 
bravesfanforlife88 said:
IMO the likeliest scenario with Ozuna is that he eventually pleads guilty to a lesser charge and the felony charge is dropped. The evidence of the police witnessing the alleged assault is something that his lawyer knows is an uphill battle to convince a jury it was "self defense".

As far as the baseball side of things, GA is a right to work state, so Ozuna could be terminated for no reason. MLB can fine him, suspend him, etc. without a guilty verdict. Even if he pleads down to a lesser charge, MLB can say that his actions still violate their policies and standards, while throwing the book at him.
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Right to work laws have nothing whatsoever to do with firing anyone.
 
PawPawMaxwell said:
But MLB has to have an acceptable reason or MLBPA will rise up. Fortunately both parties agree on domestic violence which leaves it as a contract issue and the more or less $60M Braves are on hook for.
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I don't think it would be a good look for the MLBPA to really try to fight hard for Ozuna even if he manages a plea bargain down to a lower charge. Sam Dyson was suspended for a year and there's no indication (although likely insinuation) of physical violence in his case.
 
50PoundHead said:
I don't think it would be a good look for the MLBPA to really try to fight hard for Ozuna even if he manages a plea bargain down to a lower charge. Sam Dyson was suspended for a year and there's no indication (although likely insinuation) of physical violence in his case.
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Yeah, but the flip-side of the Dyson situation is that the team wasn't on the hook to pay him beyond the point he "had to" be reinstated.

The Mutts are still on the hook for the rest of Cano's contract after his suspension is up. Obviously not "apples-to-apples", but something that probably needs to be kept in mind. They're probably going to release him before ever letting him take the field again, but the Braves may very well be in the same boat with Ozuna - you can take the ethical high road so your fans don't desert you, but you still have to pay the commitment if the ethics clause isn't specific enough.

Was great to talk about when it was the Mutts in the soup - sucks now that we may be in the same place - especially when you realize how much easier it's going to be for them to eat that kind of money and keep going.


(As an aside, I can't possibly be the only person that thinks it's hilarious to see so many fans come screaming to defend the owners' in this kind of situation - "you're *amn right the owner should have to pay players when they're hurt or can't perform because they agreed to that contract", BUT "there's no way the owner should have to pay that guy now that we all know he's scum".)

It sure does suck at times, but a contract is a contract - there's absolutely no better example of just how strong the MLBPA is compared to pretty much every other union on the planet whether the owners' lawyers have taken them to the woodshed the last few times they've negotiated.
 
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