Shanks Article

[Super]

To be fair, the team Coppy left won the division the next season. He inherited a team with talent but was coming off a losing season. Most of the talent that was traded away had relatively little remaining control.

Wren and Coppy are both very lucky Acuña and Albies became what they are. i don't give much credit to Wren for them because no one would've guessed what they'd become, but the outlook of this team changes drastically without those two. if Wren didn't draw the once in a lifetime lottery tickets that became those two, his tenure would be considered god-awful for the shape he left the franchise in.

 

[Southcack77]

the team wasn't far from competing, tho. that's the point here. and yeah i know when Fried came over, my point there was Coppy wasn't targeting all almost-ready guys. Fried was a big gamble with great stuff and it's working out now.
Newcomb made his ML debut the year before the Braves won the division in 2018. so, while the trade was a mistake, and many called it one at the time, i don't think it was a mistake because they targeted a guy close to the majors; Newcomb *did* put up 1.9 fWAR that year while making 30 starts, so he helped a division winning club. again, still a mistake, but not a mistake because of proximity to the majors. Braves also desperately needed pitching, and we know why: Wren.

I was and still am fine with trading Simmons.

I think it is fair to question the return, but holding an incredible defensive shortstop for three losing seasons rather than converting him into something probably would have been the wrong thing to do. I guess he could still be the starting SS for the Braves, but I can't say that it would make a ton of difference if he was. I think his last peak season was 2018 and he never did break out offensively like his most passionate fans insisted would be the case.

The Braves got a first round arm in Newcomb and a decent rotation possibility in Ellis out of it. Ellis actually helped landed Jaime Garcia, who was then traded for Ynoa. The Braves should have probably done better, but netting a 15th overall pick and a top 100 rotation piece wasn't unbelievably terrible.

To me, the strange thing here was moving Simmons while keeping Teheran or signing Markakis. Simmons would have been a natural building block, but I guess he was the last trade piece the Braves had other than Freddie who could net them a blue chip arm or two.

 

[CyYoung31]

great breakdown of the Braves farm when Wren arrived.
this move above, however...as critical as i am of Wren, even i give him a pass on this one. it smells way, way too much like the Johns forced that signing because Glavine was Glavine. we'll never know, but my hunch is that was not Wren's decision.

You’re probably right, considering that he “ran” Glavine off the very next season, very much like he reportedly did to Smoltz much to the chagrin of many in the organization.

 

[Southcack77]

Wren and Coppy are both very lucky Acuña and Albies became what they are. i don't give much credit to Wren for them because no one would've guessed what they'd become, but the outlook of this team changes drastically without those two. if Wren didn't draw the once in a lifetime lottery tickets that became those two, his tenure would be considered god-awful for the shape he left the franchise in.

I think Acuña was particularly lucky.

Albies was a great find too, but I think his talent is a lot more usual than Ronald.

i would like very much for the Braves to re-open business in the international market.

 

[Carp]

great breakdown of the Braves farm when Wren arrived.
this move above, however...as critical as i am of Wren, even i give him a pass on this one. it smells way, way too much like the Johns forced that signing because Glavine was Glavine. we'll never know, but my hunch is that was not Wren's decision.

Maybe. But pitching was the greatest need and, if I recall, and we signed him even before he had the chance to turn down arby. I kind doubt the Mets would have offered a 41 year old Glavine arby, especially after the choke job Glavine did down the stretch in that magical 2007 Mets season.

Even if Wren had JS breathing down his neck about signing Glavine, he should have waited until after he was offered arby.

 

[zitothebrave]

That's some revisionist theory. Schafer was a top 20 prospect heading into 2008. Quibble about his actual talent level all you want. He was considered a great prospect in 2008. Heyward was also a top 50 prospect. And Lillibridge and Jones were Top 100. That's four top 100 prospects that he himself inherited, not to mention a bevy of other talented kids on their way up. The cupboard was not bare, no matter how you want to spin it. In fact, BA ranked us 8th pre-season 2008 among farm systems.

And the on-field talent he inherited included Mac, Tex, Escobar, Renteria, Chipper, KJ, Hudson, Gonzalez, and Soriano, plus some decent role player guys like Prado (at the time a role player), Frenchy, and Blanco . Not the 27 Yankees, but enough of a core to build a winner, paired with a good farm and some savvy FA signings. And to Wren's credit, he did build a winner with that

Wren made some good value trades, though several of them didn't work out as intended. McLouth was lauded at the time as a great value trade, but he quickly busted. Uggla trade, again, was lauded for the value, but he quickly became a liability, while Infante would go on to roughly double Uggla's WAR over the same time frame as Uggla's contract. But I won't fault him for Uggla, as it certainly seemed like a steal at the time. Vazquez, Upton, JJ, and Bourn were all great trades that worked out. I have a hard time giving him credit for the Kotchman/LaRoche swap being that he's the one that traded away Tex for Kotchman in the 1st place. And the Angels used the Tex comp pick to draft some player named Trout.

Let's also remember that Wren gave up a 1st round pick to sign a 41 year old Tom Glavine that had just posted a 4.4 ERA the year prior. I think this gets overlooked, but it's one of the 5 worst moves of the Wren era for me.

Also, I don't recall anyone thinking the Upton contract was "fair." I recall most thinking Bourn would end up with the higher contract given he had been the more valuable player. Upton represented the highest FA contract we had ever given out (still is).

I'm not trying to make Wren out to be worse than Coppy. He wasn't. But Wren certainly drafted worse than Coppy and left the farm far worse than when he arrived, with not much hope of competing past 2015 when J-Up and Heyward were heading out of town. It was time to tear it down and considering Wren's failure's at building the farm, I feel confident in saying he was not a good choice moving forward.

Conversely, Coppy the left the major league team far worse than when he arrived, but managed to rebuild the farm. Again, it's debatable whether someone else could have done a better job with the resources available to trade away and the high draft picks we had, but we have to go by the result we have (which is good overall). But his impatience on letting the rebuild take it's course naturally ended up with 2 truly horrific trades and a 3rd one that was nearly as bad. And the rules breaking thing was totes bad too.

Schafer was a flawed top prospect. He was just breaking in and before that year was regarded as a glove first center fielder who could develop more. He was highly regarded, but considering he was almost entirely unseated by Jason Heyward who barely played professional ball to that point should point to his value. Heyward was a top prospect, but he was again, just drafted. Lillibridge snuck into the top 100 in 2007, but who cares. He wasn't a great prospect. He was a mediocre player.

Renteria was 30 when he was traded, Chipper was 36, Soriano and Gonzalez were late 20s relievers. Hudson was 32. They were an aging team with McCann, Jurrjens (who Wren acquired), Escobar, and Johnson and as you said role players like Prado and Infante. That's hardly a great building block.

Upton wasn't supposed to be the biggest signign, but I remember seeing 90+ as the rumored price for Bourn. As I said, the market bottomed out.

As far as trades and some other things.

1. Glavine had all the feeling of JS telling Wren he had to do it. Seriously it did.

2. Kotchman coming back was because the Braves wanted a MLB ready first baseman back. It was a bad trade but all reports were that Cox demanded a First baseman back. Can you imagine if instead we sent him to Arizona for Gerardo Parra and Max Scherzer or Jarrod Parker.

3. Again, the Braves should have never have traded for Teixeira in the first place, and they shouldn't have handcuffed Wren to getting back an MLB first baseman. So all the negatives you point out (including Trout) shouldn't have happened because we never should have traded for him.

4. McLouth trade was fantastic, it didn't work out, but we traded nothing for him. Again considering the trade in retrospect is a way to analyse it but it isn't fair. Same with the Uggla trade.

I don't think Wren was amazing, but the need to **** all over him is dumb. He wasn't great, but he spent 3 years cleaning up JS's mess.

Coppy's did a fine job rebuilding, but if you gave any competent GM the pieces to trade away that Coppy had, they would have gottent he same or better return. Coppy deserves credit for not trading away our toppest talent (Albies and Acuna)

 

[Carp]

Schafer was a flawed top prospect. He was just breaking in and before that year was regarded as a glove first center fielder who could develop more. He was highly regarded, but considering he was almost entirely unseated by Jason Heyward who barely played professional ball to that point should point to his value. Heyward was a top prospect, but he was again, just drafted. Lillibridge snuck into the top 100 in 2007, but who cares. He wasn't a great prospect. He was a mediocre player.

Renteria was 30 when he was traded, Chipper was 36, Soriano and Gonzalez were late 20s relievers. Hudson was 32. They were an aging team with McCann, Jurrjens (who Wren acquired), Escobar, and Johnson and as you said role players like Prado and Infante. That's hardly a great building block.

Upton wasn't supposed to be the biggest signign, but I remember seeing 90+ as the rumored price for Bourn. As I said, the market bottomed out.

As far as trades and some other things.

1. Glavine had all the feeling of JS telling Wren he had to do it. Seriously it did.

2. Kotchman coming back was because the Braves wanted a MLB ready first baseman back. It was a bad trade but all reports were that Cox demanded a First baseman back. Can you imagine if instead we sent him to Arizona for Gerardo Parra and Max Scherzer or Jarrod Parker.

3. Again, the Braves should have never have traded for Teixeira in the first place, and they shouldn't have handcuffed Wren to getting back an MLB first baseman. So all the negatives you point out (including Trout) shouldn't have happened because we never should have traded for him.

4. McLouth trade was fantastic, it didn't work out, but we traded nothing for him. Again considering the trade in retrospect is a way to analyse it but it isn't fair. Same with the Uggla trade.

I don't think Wren was amazing, but the need to **** all over him is dumb. He wasn't great, but he spent 3 years cleaning up JS's mess.

Coppy's did a fine job rebuilding, but if you gave any competent GM the pieces to trade away that Coppy had, they would have gottent he same or better return. Coppy deserves credit for not trading away our toppest talent (Albies and Acuna)

You can't play both sides of the fence here. You can't claim our farm wasn't great b/c most of the great prospects hadn't broken out yet, while simultaneously saying that the prospects that were considered good at that time weren't that great b/c of how they turned out. These prospects were highly regarded. That's a fact that can't be denied. BA rated our farm as the 8th best. Painting our farm as anything other than good in 2008 is revisionist history. The farm absolutely was in good shape as evidenced by both being rated highly at the time and producing several high end players over the next 4-5 years from that same 2008 farm.

You are delusional if you don't think that roster wasn't a great building block. As someone already stated, most of those players were the main core of the team that made the playoffs in 2010.

We're judging Wren's trades here, not his predecessor's. Wren traded Tex for Kotchman, not JS (or Bobby). If Wren let Bobby dictate who he should trade his players for, then Wren should never have been GM in the first place.

We absolutely judge trades by how the players involved turn out. If all those pieces we traded for Tex fizzled and never made an MLB impact, we wouldn't view that trade as possibly the worst Braves trade ever. It's the same reason everyone considers the Doyle Alexander trade one of the worsts for the Tigers, despite Alexander performing exactly how the Tigers wanted him to perform. And it's the same you reason you are bitching about JS trading Wainwright for Drew, despite Drew being an MVP candidate the season he was here. McLouth was terrible. Those pieces we traded away could have brought back someone else that could have actually made an impact.

I don't think anyone is ****ting on Wren. But you have some might weird revisionist history going on there. Wren inherited a good situatiion. He did a decent enough job building a contender but he ruined the farm by the end of his tenure. That's his legacy in the Braves organization.

 

[Southcack77]

1. Glavine had all the feeling of JS telling Wren he had to do it. Seriously it did.

2. Kotchman coming back was because the Braves wanted a MLB ready first baseman back. It was a bad trade but all reports were that Cox demanded a First baseman back. Can you imagine if instead we sent him to Arizona for Gerardo Parra and Max Scherzer or Jarrod Parker.

3. Again, the Braves should have never have traded for Teixeira in the first place, and they shouldn't have handcuffed Wren to getting back an MLB first baseman. So all the negatives you point out (including Trout) shouldn't have happened because we never should have traded for him.

4. McLouth trade was fantastic, it didn't work out, but we traded nothing for him. Again considering the trade in retrospect is a way to analyse it but it isn't fair. Same with the Uggla trade.

I don't think Wren was amazing, but the need to **** all over him is dumb. He wasn't great, but he spent 3 years cleaning up JS's mess.

Coppy's did a fine job rebuilding, but if you gave any competent GM the pieces to trade away that Coppy had, they would have gottent he same or better return. Coppy deserves credit for not trading away our toppest talent (Albies and Acuna)

1. Maybe, maybe not.

2. Why is it always someone else that messes up the trades for Frank Wren? Also, the D-Backs had no interest in trading Scherzer or Parker for Tex.

3. It doesn't seem like people should bitch for two decades about a trade in which the biggest player going out was Elvis Andrus. A nice player, but really worth 20 years of whining?

I get it. The Rangers got some MLB players in the deal and those role filling guys all were near their peak at a time when the Rangers had really good other players that powered them to the World Series. Good for the Rangers for making a trade that gave them a lot of MLB depth. The Braves probably didn't need to trade for Tex given how unrealistic it was that the pitching could carry them anywhere. But man alive it ultimately was Elvis Andrus. Can we get past it?

4. The Braves traded 3 future major league players for a guy that ended up being 1) terrible and 2) did not make the Braves a credible contender. But that's a great deal? At least Tex was good. While I know Gorkys and Locke were not good major leagues, Charlie Morton kind of was.


My sense is that you must be little bit younger than my 43 years. I can't imagine anyone who followed the Braves in the 80s (or to my understanding the 70s) having such a nasty view of John S. and Bobby Cox.

 

[MadduxFanII]

I think the harshest criticism you can levy at Wren while still being fair to him is that he did a pretty decent job assembling the big league rosters and he was bad to awful at the other aspects of the job.

 

[Southcack77]

I think the harshest criticism you can levy at Wren while still being fair to him is that he did a pretty decent job assembling the big league rosters and he was bad to awful at the other aspects of the job.

I disagree that BJ, Uggla, and Kawakami signings leave enough room for him to grade out as doing a pretty decent job.

 

[Super]

4. The Braves traded 3 future major league players for a guy that ended up being 1) terrible and 2) did not make the Braves a credible contender. But that's a great deal? At least Tex was good. While I know Gorkys and Locke were not good major leagues, Charlie Morton kind of was.

it is plainly bizarre to champion the Nate McLouth trade while dismissing some of Coppy's trades.

 

[Enscheff]

Folks still read anything written by Shanks? Isn't he some redneck radio DJ in a small minor league town nobody cares about?

 

[CyYoung31]

This was a really interesting thread until it devolved into yet another discourse on the merits of the Frank Wren regime.

 

[drewdat]

Coppy burrito w/ extra guac ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[BeanieAntics]

Wren and Coppy are both very lucky Acuña and Albies became what they are. i don't give much credit to Wren for them because no one would've guessed what they'd become, but the outlook of this team changes drastically without those two. if Wren didn't draw the once in a lifetime lottery tickets that became those two, his tenure would be considered god-awful for the shape he left the franchise in.

Wouldn't that be twice in a lifetime lottery tickets by definition?

Anyway, he did get super lucky with those two. If we didn't have them, we likely wouldn't be a playoff team. We'd likely be paying more money for less production at their positions and wouldn't have had the extra cash to carry contracts like Ozuna/D'arnaud/Smith/etc. In all honesty, we would probably be looking at another top 10 draft pick if we didn't have them.

 

[Mrs. Meta]

I read the article and it inspired me to write some fanfiction.