Student loans

How many people are accepted to art programs that have zero chance of producing any societal appreciated art?

If the acceptance was more about true talent then we wouldn’t be in this situation we are today.
 
chop2chip said:
I challenge you to find more than 5 composers or painters of historical significance that didn’t attend a university. You can go back 500 years and you’ll see a pretty well worn path to greatness (not without irony most of these men died in great poverty. Perhaps their modern counterparts can learn more from their example).
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The really talented ones tend to drop out after a semester. Sort of like John McEnroe and Tiger Woods going to Stanford for a year. There was nothing more for them to learn there. Same with Miles Davis at Juillard.
 
thethe said:
Do you think universities of 50 years ago looked anything like the monstrosities we see today? It’s the whole point of this conversation.
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Do you need a refresher on my opinion on the subject? I think I’ve made my side quite clear.

At the same time, we need to at least be intellectually honest with ourselves. Saying art or art institutions provide no productivity to society is just wrong. You can’t spend an hour in Europe without feeling the enormous impact that art had on its society and culture. Richard Wagner was probably the most important German of the 19th century (alumnist of Liepzig University).
 
thethe said:
How many people are accepted to art programs that have zero chance of producing any societal appreciated art?

If the acceptance was more about true talent then we wouldn’t be in this situation we are today.
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That's a good point. The pyramid to professional success is much steeper in music than professional sports. But I would argue what the top of the pyramid produces is beyond value.
 
nsacpi said:
That's a good point. The pyramid to professional success is much steeper in music than professional sports. But I would argue what the top of the pyramid produces is beyond value.
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And you won’t get an argument from me there. University study should be a privilege only extended to those with true talent and drive. Not just a matter to do check the box function to seem “educated”.
 
chop2chip said:
Do you need a refresher on my opinion on the subject? I think I’ve made my side quite clear.

At the same time, we need to at least be intellectually honest with ourselves. Saying art or art institutions provide no productivity to society is just wrong. You can’t spend an hour in Europe without feeling the enormous impact that art had on its society and culture. Richard Wagner was probably the most important German of the 19th century (alumnist of Liepzig University).
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I think you are also misunderstanding my position. I’ve long felt that out of the college attending population that at most 50% should be there but likely it should be much lower and in humanities type careeers it should be closer to 10%.
 
thethe said:
And you won’t get an argument from me there. University study should be a privilege only extended to those with true talent and drive. Not just a matter to do check the box function to seem “educated”.
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I wish the top of the pyramid could exist with the rest of the edifice. I suspect it can't. Genius needs a lot of support and nurturing.
 
thethe said:
I think you are also misunderstanding my position. I’ve long felt that out of the college attending population that at most 50% should be there but likely it should be much lower and in humanities type careeers it should be closer to 10%.
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I agree. The one size fits all approach doesn’t make sense and the government subsidies result in a situation where we have far too many philosophers and not enough plumbers and electricians.
 
nsacpi said:
I wish the top of the pyramid could exist with the rest of the edifice. I suspect it can't. Genius needs a lot of support and nurturing.
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I fundamentally disagree that a bloated administration is needs to nurture the next generation of great artists.
 
nsacpi said:
I wish the top of the pyramid could exist with the rest of the edifice. I suspect it can't. Genius needs a lot of support and nurturing.
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How much nurturing does genius get with classes sizes of 200 students and grad students that teach the class because the professor has tenure and would rather focus on research?
 
chop2chip said:
How much nurturing does genius get with classes sizes of 200 students and grad students that teach the class because the professor has tenure and would rather focus on research?
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Ha. Yes. I used to feel sorry for my students when I was a graduate student.
 
chop2chip said:
I agree. The one size fits all approach doesn’t make sense and the government subsidies result in a situation where we have far too many philosophers and not enough plumbers and electricians.
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And further I think corporations are missing out on golden opportunities to find people not suited for university structure but could thrive in other environments. Offer long form internships (paid at advantageous rates for companies) with a pathway to full time employments. Always mystified me why this isn’t the norm.
 
chop2chip said:
I agree. The one size fits all approach doesn’t make sense and the government subsidies result in a situation where we have far too many philosophers and not enough plumbers and electricians.
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My plumber thinks he's a philosopher. The worst of both worlds!
 
thethe said:
And further I think corporations are missing out on golden opportunities to find people not suited for university structure but could thrive in other environments. Offer long form internships (paid at advantageous rates for companies) with a pathway to full time employments. Always mystified me why this isn’t the norm.
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Thankfully the corporations I consult with are quickly adjust to skills over credentials
 
thethe said:
And further I think corporations are missing out on golden opportunities to find people not suited for university structure but could thrive in other environments. Offer long form internships (paid at advantageous rates for companies) with a pathway to full time employments. Always mystified me why this isn’t the norm.
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Haven’t read much on how this could work but the idea sounds good on paper. I suspect employers enjoy the current structure though. The cost of hiring someone is actually really high (it’s why most employers will offer high referral bonuses). Universities simplify recruiting and metrics like GRE score and GPA offer good screening at no cost.
 
sturg33 said:
Thankfully the corporations I consult with are quickly adjust to skills over credentials
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My experience is credentials make a difference in the hiring process but once people are in the door it comes down to performance. The recent trend for reducing credentialism is a good one.
 
chop2chip said:
Haven’t read much on how this could work but the idea sounds good on paper. I suspect employers enjoy the current structure though. The cost of hiring someone is actually really high (it’s why most employers will offer high referral bonuses). Universities simplify recruiting and metrics like GRE score and GPA offer good screening at no cost.
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That’s why they save on the actual labor costs and have a true at will employment whereby the minute you see any non preferred behavior you let them go. You are right to discuss the costs of employment but with a natural sifting function I think in the long run it will save organizations lots of money. Might make recruiters a lot less money as their only function would be for senior level positions then
 
nsacpi said:
My plumber thinks he's a philosopher. The worst of both worlds!
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The guy who built our entertainment center was actually a backend engineer for a healthcare company. He was so underutilized (speaking of bloat) that he picked up woodworking as a hobby and got so good that he started doing carpentry on the side. He was listening in on a work call one of the times I stopped by to checked in on progress.
 
nsacpi said:
My experience is credentials make a difference in the hiring process but once people are in the door it comes down to performance. The recent trend for reducing credentialism is a good one.
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I had zero training in data analysis and learned it all as I went along. I deal with credentialed analysts and I laugh at how worthless their pieces of paper are sometimes when they have zero ability to speak to the work they have done or can do.

Fully admit that mathematics and data analysis kind of go hand and hand.
 
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