The Coronavirus, not the beer

sturg33 said:
Can anyone help me understand why Sweden's 7-day average death count is currently zero?

They are only 40% vaccinated, I believe
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well you have been recently anointing yourself as the guru of covid seasonality

perhaps the answer lies in that direction

what was the seasonal pattern in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries last summer

can you think of a reason why that pattern makes sense

just sayin
 
nsacpi said:
well you have been recently anointing yourself as the guru of covid seasonality

perhaps the answer lies in that direction

what was the seasonal pattern in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries last summer

can you think of a reason why that pattern makes sense

just sayin
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Are you suggesting seasonality is a bigger factor than vaccines?
 
nsacpi said:
So what's the actual situation in Gibraltar?

Are they actually locking down?

What is the trend among residents on deaths per day from covid?

just askin
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No they're not locking down, unless some random twitter user knows more than anyone else in the world including government press releases.
 
nsacpi said:
No. I think vaccines can override or greatly dampen seasonality when it comes to incidence of severe illness and death.
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Yup - And the ones that statistically are more likely to get severe illness and death should take the vaccine.
 
thethe said:
Yup - And the ones that statistically are more likely to get severe illness and death should take the vaccine.
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Everyone should take it.

Obviously, I'm not saying against their will. But society should incentivize it. Look at the restrictions we've placed on where people can smoke. Kids are required to get all sorts of vaccines to attend schools. Ditto serving in the military. If someone feels strongly enough about not taking the vaccine, they can homeschool and otherwise check out if they wish to. It is a balancing act between the rights of individuals and the prerogatives of a society to enforce certain policies for the social good. We've done it in other spheres (filing taxes, wearing a helmet, a safety belt, speed limits). This debate is nothing new. If you don't want to observe speed limits you don't have to drive. The logic with vaccines should be similar. If you don't want to take it, then you don't have to fly wherever you're going. You can walk instead or drive your car (assuming the speed limit laws are something you can live with). Apologies for any inconvenience and loss in quality of life.
 
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nsacpi said:
Everyone should take it.

Obviously, I'm not saying against their will. But society should incentivize it. Look at the restrictions we've placed on where people can smoke. Kids are required to get all sorts of vaccines to attend schools. Ditto serving in the military. If someone feels strongly enough about not taking the vaccine, they can homeschool and otherwise check out if they wish to. It is a balancing act between the rights of individuals and the prerogatives of a society to enforce certain policies for the social good. We've done it in other spheres (filing taxes, wearing a helmet, a safety belt, speed limits). This debate is nothing new. If you don't want to observe speed limits you don't have to drive. The logic with vaccines should be similar. If you don't want to take it, then you don't have to fly wherever you're going. You can walk instead or drive your car (assuming the speed limit laws are something you can live with).
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The vaccines that are mandated by schools are for illnesses with a far greater risk to the general population and the individual.

Your comfort with restricting someone to fly because they don't want to take a vaccine for an illness that they virtually have no risk from is insanity. It just is. Where does your comfort level stop on restricting the free flowing movement of these dregs of society? Should we let them go shopping? How about to parks? I can't even believe that someone with a straight face would say that those that aren't vaccinated shouldn't get to fly.

The ones who are at risk should take a vaccine based on their own risk tolerance. Everyone else should make their own decision but there is no added benefit (one could argue that you are diminishing vaccine effectiveness with more circulation) for those that aren't going to get sick to taking them. We know the virus is still circulating amongst vaccinated people so once we found that out then the benefit for all vaccination went out the window.
 
I've been amazed at the calls for making a vaccine mandatory before it's even reached FDA approval.
 
thethe said:
The vaccines that are mandated by schools are for illnesses with a far greater risk to the general population and the individual.

Your comfort with restricting someone to fly because they don't want to take a vaccine for an illness that they virtually have no risk from is insanity. It just is. Where does your comfort level stop on restricting the free flowing movement of these dregs of society? Should we let them go shopping? How about to parks? I can't even believe that someone with a straight face would say that those that aren't vaccinated shouldn't get to fly.

The ones who are at risk should take a vaccine based on their own risk tolerance. Everyone else should make their own decision but there is no added benefit (one could argue that you are diminishing vaccine effectiveness with more circulation) for those that aren't going to get sick to taking them. We know the virus is still circulating amongst vaccinated people so once we found that out then the benefit for all vaccination went out the window.
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well if you want to order takeout from your favorite restaurant fortunately for you the technology now exists for you to do so

this virus is not something to mess around with

i don't care if you are young and healthy and low risk...the choices you make have enormous externalities in terms of effects on the rest of society...none of us asked for covid, but the fact of the matter is we have to deal with it collectively...society is entitled in these circumstances to circumscribe the choices available to those who choose not to take the vaccine
 
nsacpi said:
well if you want to order takeout from your favorite restaurant fortunately for you the technology now exists for you to do so

this virus is not something to mess around with

i don't care if you are young and healthy and low risk...the choices you make have enormous externalities in terms of effects on the rest of society...none of us asked for covid, but the fact of the matter is we have to deal with it collectively...society is entitled in these circumstances to circumscribe the choices available to those who choose not to take the vaccine
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What choice can I make that will impact someone at risk who has taken the vaccine?
 
Jaw said:
I've been amazed at the calls for making a vaccine mandatory before it's even reached FDA approval.
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I honestly don't care if its FDA approved or not considering the long string of blunders by the organization. It is just amusing that they have been adamant not to approve it and shield the makers from liability.

They know the data isn't clear yet on its effectiveness so they are covering their asses.

No vaccine for an illness with a profile that COVID has should be mandatory. We know who has a higher likelihood for a bad outcome.
 
Jaw said:
I've been amazed at the calls for making a vaccine mandatory before it's even reached FDA approval.
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I don't think it should be mandatory. People can always opt for homeschooling or not joining the military and not flying on a commercial flight.

Btw I strongly suspect that once the FDA gives final approval in a month or so, nothing will change. There will still be the same ideological objections from folk libertarians (muh rights) and others.

Because there are some people of goodwill (like you and acesfull) making the argument about final FDA approval, I would be ok with waiting until it happens before we start putting restrictions on what unvaccinated people can do. The FDA has committed to doing this by sometime in September (for Pfizer, it will take longer for the others). It's not gonna be a long wait.
 
nsacpi said:
People can always opt for homeschooling or not joining the military and not flying on a commercial flight.
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People can always stay in their homes.
People can always not take jobs that require them to leave the house.

Amazing that you are taking this approach. You want to talk about 'Literal Hitler'?
 
Obviously, I would also allow exceptions on religious and medical grounds. We exempt the Amish for example from participating in the social security program. There may be religions out there that forbid vaccines. Christian Scientists have long held the medical establishment at arms length.
 
thethe said:
^
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its kind of a dumb question

an infectious disease is Exhibit A for externalities

a much stronger example than say protecting non-smokers from the harm caused by exposure to second hand smoke

and yet we've taken much stronger actions as a society restricting where people can smoke and taxing them for it

if you want to smoke you can't fly commercial or go to a restaurant...the horror!
 
nsacpi said:
its kind of a dumb question

an infectious disease is Exhibit A for externalities

a much stronger example than say protecting non-smokers from second hand smoke

and yet we've taken much stronger actions as a society restricting where people can smoke and taxing them for it
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Is it a dumb question or one you don't want to answer because it completely destroys your argument that distribution should be widespread to those not at risk?

I think we know the answer.

Once we found out that hte vaccine is more a therapeutic than traditional vaccine then your argument went out the window.

You are just digging in because you get so much wrong.
 
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