The Gattis Thread...

zitothebrave said:
I don't get the rush to move Gattis off catcher, Bethancourt will be lucky to be as valuable as Gattis was to us last year.
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That's possible. But it's impossible to quantify catcher value at this point and the two are a walking case study waiting to happen with their respective, polar opposite skill sets. This is a question that would be easier to answer in 2025 when, hopefully, catcher metrics catch up and we have a better understanding of the value of all aspects of receiving (including staff management).
 
zitothebrave said:
The thing is Gattis doesn't suck behind the plate. He's basically average. Above average with framing below average at throwing and blocking. Bethancourt hasn't impressed me in the bigs yet. He isn't a Molina.
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The limited two year sample suggests he doesn't suck. But it's still limited. All those numbers contradict almost every scouting report on Gattis. And we have an a few examples from this year alone with pitchers being frustrated with his game calling. It's difficult to quantify those things, but they still matter.
 
blueagleace1 said:
I understand you're reasoning but let me point this out to you and see if it changes your opinion. Heck, it might not.

Gattis's value is from being a RH middle-of-the-order power bat. It is an added bonus that he can catch and even play LF. When an AL team -such as the Rangers- look at Evan's value they see a guy with 30-40 home run potential who is under club control for 4 more season, for an extremely low amount given the production he gives you. His value will never be higher than it is now since he is still a "Pre-Arb" guy. Teams in the AL will value him more because they are able to give him more at-bats in a season by letting him be a everyday DH and then catching 1-2 times per week, all while keeping his bat in the lineup 95% of the time. He has an added value because he can catch NOT that he is an everyday catcher. If he were to be our full-time catcher next season with the intent of trading him next off-season and he goes and gets hurt again, causing him to only play 75 games then we have lost a ton of value for him, not to mention the fact that teams are going to presume he can't stay healthy for a full season, thus substantially diminishing the return we would get.

Hope I made sense... just my opinion.
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I'm definitely not against trading Gattis for the right package. But wasn't it reported that Rangers said Gonzalez alone was off limits? If we can't get a substantial return, I believe we'd be better off keeping him and having him catch. Bethancourt has done nothing to impress me. Defense wasn't as good as I expected either. But ya if we can get a big haul for him now do it, if its just an ok return keep him.
 
tomahawkchop10 said:
I'm definitely not against trading Gattis for the right package. But wasn't it reported that Rangers said Gonzalez alone was off limits? If we can't get a substantial return, I believe we'd be better off keeping him and having him catch. Bethancourt has done nothing to impress me. Defense wasn't as good as I expected either. But ya if we can get a big haul for him now do it, if its just an ok return keep him.
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I definitely agree with you there. Again just my opinion, but Gonzalez and Luke Jackson my be unaviable simply because the Rangers lack starting pitchers at the MLB level as well as not having much depth at SP in their organization. I could see us offering Gattis/Russell/Northcraft for Profar/Ryan Rua... that would seem like a fair deal for both teams.
 
blueagleace1 said:
I definitely agree with you there. Again just my opinion, but Gonzalez and Luke Jackson my be unaviable simply because the Rangers lack starting pitchers at the MLB level as well as not having much depth at SP in their organization. I could see us offering Gattis/Russell/Northcraft for Profar/Ryan Rua... that would seem like a fair deal for both teams.
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I would love to get Profar.
 
chop2chip said:
The limited two year sample suggests he doesn't suck. But it's still limited. All those numbers contradict almost every scouting report on Gattis. And we have an a few examples from this year alone with pitchers being frustrated with his game calling. It's difficult to quantify those things, but they still matter.
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That's fair. I think in the end we were spoiled by McCann, everyone talked about how bad he was defensively because he sometimes threw a ball into centerfield, not realizing how good he was at the other more common aspects of catching: framing, blocking, and calling a game. I said before last year we would miss McCann, and I think we did, and if we trade Gattis, we'll really miss McCann because what I've seen from Bethancourt, he is maybe close to McCann defensively (big maybe) but he's leagues behind him offensively.

I'd tell our pitchers to suck it, if we need to baby Gattis as a play caller to keep our team better, so be it.
 
chop2chip said:
The limited two year sample suggests he doesn't suck. But it's still limited. All those numbers contradict almost every scouting report on Gattis. And we have an a few examples from this year alone with pitchers being frustrated with his game calling. It's difficult to quantify those things, but they still matter.
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Not true on the scouting report comment. It's groupthink from the interwebs. People see his body and assume he can't play defense. Somebody said it and it stuck. I think he frames and throws well - at least has a strong arm. He doesn't block well. I thought he worked well with everyone except Teheran. Since the bench is calling pitches most of the time, that's not really on him.

I'm not Fredi's biggest fan, but he was a big-bodied catcher himself and I thought he handled Gattis' workload well. It's a shame we have Goofy Lou Gehrig at 1B. That'd be the place to get Evan 20 more games. Then he could DH interleague, and maybe we should keep him.
 
zitothebrave said:
That's fair. I think in the end we were spoiled by McCann, everyone talked about how bad he was defensively because he sometimes threw a ball into centerfield, not realizing how good he was at the other more common aspects of catching: framing, blocking, and calling a game. I said before last year we would miss McCann, and I think we did, and if we trade Gattis, we'll really miss McCann because what I've seen from Bethancourt, he is maybe close to McCann defensively (big maybe) but he's leagues behind him offensively.

I'd tell our pitchers to suck it, if we need to baby Gattis as a play caller to keep our team better, so be it.
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I think it's Teheran only. Let Ross handle Teheran.
 
tomahawkchop10 said:
I'm definitely not against trading Gattis for the right package. But wasn't it reported that Rangers said Gonzalez alone was off limits? If we can't get a substantial return, I believe we'd be better off keeping him and having him catch. Bethancourt has done nothing to impress me. Defense wasn't as good as I expected either. But ya if we can get a big haul for him now do it, if its just an ok return keep him.
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If I'm an AL GM, I deal prospects for Gattis and don't look back. Surely they must have scouts saying, "if this guy didn't have to catch full time...."

And if I'm John Hart, I think long and hard about dealing him. Which he is.

If he gets a tad more selective, which makes him more consistent, IMO, he's an All-Star. Middling defense or not, .900 OPSes don't grow on trees.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Why? Serious question. He's young still, but was overmatched when he was up in '13, and didn't play last year.
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Because we couldn't get him otherwise. If he was healthy last year and put up fantastic offensive and defensive numbers we couldn't get him.

That said, not's know if I see him as a fit for us. We already have Peraza as our lone valuable position prospect. Why add Profar then move him to 3B? If you're not gonna use him at SS, then he has much less value. I know he showed pop in the minor,s but are we gonna put all our Gattis bet on him? Why not go after a 3B prospect or young 3B?
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Why? Serious question. He's young still, but was overmatched when he was up in '13, and didn't play last year.
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Dude was a top 5 prospect in just 2013. If I remember correctly he was only up for a bit in 2013 when he struggled, and was I believe only 20 years old. Mike Trout struggled his first time up too. And last year he was hurt, the kid still has tons of talent. I'm not saying he's mike trout or that he is necessarily the best fit, but getting a young controllable player like that would be great. Now I do love Gattis so I would like another piece with him. Maybe throw in Russell or carpenter to get another better prospect back.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
If I'm an AL GM, I deal prospects for Gattis and don't look back. Surely they must have scouts saying, "if this guy didn't have to catch full time...."

And if I'm John Hart, I think long and hard about dealing him. Which he is.

If he gets a tad more selective, which makes him more consistent, IMO, he's an All-Star. Middling defense or not, .900 OPSes don't grow on trees.
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That's my opinion on Gattis as well. I value him as an elite hitting catcher. So only deal him if we get a return worthy of an elite hitting catcher. If not keep him, but keep him at the position he is most valuable at, catcher.
 
blueagleace1 said:
I definitely agree with you there. Again just my opinion, but Gonzalez and Luke Jackson my be unaviable simply because the Rangers lack starting pitchers at the MLB level as well as not having much depth at SP in their organization. I could see us offering Gattis/Russell/Northcraft for Profar/Ryan Rua... that would seem like a fair deal for both teams.
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I wonder if we could add Minor and make it a block buster. Minor and Gattis solve a lot of problems for them. But we'd need a big time pitching prospect, a long term answer as a position player, and probably 2 more pieces B or better pieces(one could be taking Upton or CJ).
 
zitothebrave said:
The thing is Gattis doesn't suck behind the plate. He's basically average. Above average with framing below average at throwing and blocking. Bethancourt hasn't impressed me in the bigs yet. He isn't a Molina.
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Agree.

I don't get C-B. Why do we want to move Gattis from C so much? I'm ok with moving Gattis if you get a haul that sets you up for the future. He is not a great defender. He has had some injuries. He has OBP issues.

But C-B didn't look good to me on DEFENSE. Tools, yes, but just tools. Offense is bad. And he's a Boras client. If we start the clock on him we need to start drafting more catchers b/c IF, big IF, we want to keep him we won't be able to.
 
yeezus said:
Read the Rays have received offers for Myers. Would love to deal Gattis for him.
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I don't have the measure of angst with the Heyward deal that others have, but if Myers is truly available, this is where Hart and company should have exercised a bit more patience, especially on the decision to sign Markakis. It all depends on whether or not Myers is truly available.
 
tomahawkchop10 said:
That's my opinion on Gattis as well. I value him as an elite hitting catcher. So only deal him if we get a return worthy of an elite hitting catcher. If not keep him, but keep him at the position he is most valuable at, catcher.
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While pretty much everything you say is true... there is a reason most really good hitting catchers don't remain full-time catchers. They either change positions, learn a second position in order to get more consistent AB's, or DH part time.
If their bat is good enough to play every day, teams find a way to keep them in the line-up, and catchers can't catch everyday. This is compounded by Gattis size and body type. He will have a much longer, and in the long run, a more productive career if he can hit without having to crouch behind the plate wearing the "tools of ignorance" on an every day basis.

He is an okay catcher, but a good enough hitter, to be used elsewhere as well.
 
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