The Reverse Pennant Chase

Preacher said:
We really do usually agree, but again on this issue - we just look at it differently.

Yes the Braves (IMO) should have thrown Jenkins out there, they should not have used their best pitcher in what is a meaningless game - going from #2 -> #5 is significant, losing $3mill+ is very signigicant, winning 1-0 on the last game in Turner is not significant. Its just not.

As to your second point, the Braves responsibility is to their franchises' future, not to some other team fighting for a WC spot.

The Braves management bungled this and next year we aren't going to be in nearly as strong of a position entering a pivotal draft.
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To you and some posters on this message board it wasn't significant.

I have a feeling that's not the way anyone in that dugout, members of the front office, former players, their families, and countless others that are a part of the organization felt.
 
chop2chip said:
This is a good post, but I do think some are actually saying that the Braves should have went out of their way to lose games this past week. That's where the the disagreement is arising.
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I will happily come out and say I think they should've tanked the entire month of September. Any veteran that they thought was going to be a crucial part of the team next season, give them an early paid vacation and tell them to be ready come spring training. I definitely would never have pitched Teheran in the game yesterday simply because an injury to him would've been devastating for next season. Fortunately that didn't happen but I would not have taken the chance.

I would've only played young guys or the AAAA type players and gotten them experience or like Horsehide Harry mentioned, try different guys at different positions where they may be needed next year in the event of an injury. My main objective would be to get one of the first two picks in the draft (ideally #1) and get young guys experience against teams that are competing to make the playoffs. I want my best shot at getting difference makers so that hopefully a few years down the line when the Braves are ready to compete or already are competing, they can add a top level prospect to the team for a playoff run and hopefully long-term success.

I understand my position is on the extreme side of things. My only hope is for long-term success for the franchise. I believe that once you're out of the playoff chase, the objective should be to get the highest draft pick you can while playing as many young players as you can and getting the veterans healthy and ready for next season. I just hope that come next June we aren't kicking ourselves for missing out on a potential face of the franchise caliber player all because of winning meaningless September games.
 
CK86 said:
I will happily come out and say I think they should've tanked the entire month of September. Any veteran that they thought was going to be a crucial part of the team next season, give them an early paid vacation and tell them to be ready come spring training. I definitely would never have pitched Teheran in the game yesterday simply because an injury to him would've been devastating for next season. Fortunately that didn't happen but I would not have taken the chance.
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And JT could have gotten on a boat and killed himself on his day off. I know that is a horrible thing to say, but to not play a guy because of injury risk is a bad argument. What message do you send to your players/fans/and league by wrapping up any talent in bubble wrap and storing them for the winter in hopes of bettering a draft position. And when do you start this.. July? August? September? I mean we were out of the playoff hunt in June.. should we have just brought up Gwinnett to finish the season?
 
CK86 said:
I just hope that come next June we aren't kicking ourselves for missing out on a potential face of the franchise caliber player all because of winning meaningless September games.
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I hope next June, the Braves are 5 games up in the standings because they came out of the gate **Knowing** that this team can win important games against good opponents
 
When talking tanking, keep in mind also that the MLB draft isn't like the NBA or NFL drafts in a very crucial way. Tanking games in those sports would make more sense because your drafted players come right in and play that following year. Instant results from those drafts. Baseball of course is not like that. All drafted players are far from a sure thing and likely years away from making an impact at the Big League level, if they ever do at all. Heck, Griffey Jr. was the first #1 overall pick to make it into the HOF! Thought that was crazy when I first heard it. But consider the difficulty in drafting such elite talent and projecting their future career. That stat says it all to me. Chipper will be a second one. Then what, possibly Adrian Gonzalez and Bryce Harper? Carlos Correa and we hope Dansby?
 
CK86 said:
I will happily come out and say I think they should've tanked the entire month of September. Any veteran that they thought was going to be a crucial part of the team next season, give them an early paid vacation and tell them to be ready come spring training. I definitely would never have pitched Teheran in the game yesterday simply because an injury to him would've been devastating for next season. Fortunately that didn't happen but I would not have taken the chance.

I would've only played young guys or the AAAA type players and gotten them experience or like Horsehide Harry mentioned, try different guys at different positions where they may be needed next year in the event of an injury. My main objective would be to get one of the first two picks in the draft (ideally #1) and get young guys experience against teams that are competing to make the playoffs. I want my best shot at getting difference makers so that hopefully a few years down the line when the Braves are ready to compete or already are competing, they can add a top level prospect to the team for a playoff run and hopefully long-term success.

I understand my position is on the extreme side of things. My only hope is for long-term success for the franchise. I believe that once you're out of the playoff chase, the objective should be to get the highest draft pick you can while playing as many young players as you can and getting the veterans healthy and ready for next season. I just hope that come next June we aren't kicking ourselves for missing out on a potential face of the franchise caliber player all because of winning meaningless September games.
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Not is it only on the extreme side of things, teams competing for playoff positions could argue that the Braves were throwing games and would most certainly bring down the wrath of the commissioner. You would likely have fires, draft picks lost(!) and a probable hearing on whether or not suspensions would be in order.
In other words, you don't know a dam thing about how major league baseball works.
 
Preacher said:
We really do usually agree, but again on this issue - we just look at it differently.

Yes the Braves (IMO) should have thrown Jenkins out there, they should not have used their best pitcher in what is a meaningless game - going from #2 -> #5 is significant, losing $3mill+ is very signigicant, winning 1-0 on the last game in Turner is not significant. Its just not.

As to your second point, the Braves responsibility is to their franchises' future, not to some other team fighting for a WC spot.

The Braves management bungled this and next year we aren't going to be in nearly as strong of a position entering a pivotal draft.
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Jenkins pitched Friday and left the game with a stiff shoulder that was going to require further examination.

Considering the Braves stand to lose second and third-round picks if they sign free agents, how pivotal did you expect this draft to be?
 
rico43 said:
Jenkins pitched Friday and left the game with a stiff shoulder that was going to require further examination.

Considering the Braves stand to lose second and third-round picks if they sign free agents, how pivotal did you expect this draft to be?
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it is not necessarily Jenkins, but a Jenkins type. We could have used whoever not named JT.. That is more the point..
 
Preacher said:
They do not owe it to every other team. Did the Twins make every effort to win out, did the Padres, did everyone else? Teams do this ALL THE TIME and if you don't think they do you are burying your head in the sand.

Its not losing on purpose to use a 'younger pitcher'. Sure its stacking the deck, but you're not telling Tyrell Jenkins to go out there and groove balls, you aren't telling hitters not to swing, but you can still make an intelligent decision by not using your best pitcher; knowing that in the larger scheme of things -- its without question the best decision for your franchise.
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They used Blair, a 1-7 pitcher with an 8.00 ERA? Seems to me he fits your definition. After his crummy last start, Teheran deserved the chance to finish the season on a plus note. The fact these are professional players with pride doesn't seem to factor into your bonehead theory either.
 
rico43 said:
They used Blair, a 1-7 pitcher with an 8.00 ERA? Seems to me he fits your definition. After his crummy last start, Teheran deserved the chance to finish the season on a plus note. The fact these are professional players with pride doesn't seem to factor into your bonehead theory either.
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Rico.. why such the Vitriol? it is a differing opinion, not a personality trait.
 
Enscheff said:
Difference of opinion I suppose, and other organizations are certainly run differently.

Calling up Swanson early was a sub-optimal move I didn't support because leaving him in the minors wasn't interfering with the fundamental aspect of a professional sport: everyone competing at the best of their ability at all times.

Everything we love about baseball (from stats, to wins/loses, to the drama of crowning a champion) hinges on the assumption that everyone is trying to win to the best of their ability all the time. As soon as that stops being the case, the sport has taken a step towards being something scripted like "wrestling".

There is no doubt that tanking (or something less severe than tanking) this weekend would have been hugely beneficial to the Braves franchise. Anyone who argues $3.5M in draft pool money isn't a big deal has lost all touch with reality, and is simply using poor arguments to back up their opinion. That opinion being: staying true to the competitiveness of professional sports is more important than extra draft money, even if all teams don't do the same.

I am all for teams making optimal moves, but even I draw the line at tanking, or anything resembling it.
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As you might have picked up, I'm more mad at fate than the organization but I don't think the Braves were morally obligated to throw their ace on the last day of a 93 loss season.

For at least two reasons they might have been in better position to look after their own interests. Injury risk being one. Development opportunity being another.

Which isn't to say that Jenkins might not have throw 7 shutout innings anyway.

hell Blair was dominant the day before.
 
rico43 said:
They used Blair, a 1-7 pitcher with an 8.00 ERA? Seems to me he fits your definition. After his crummy last start, Teheran deserved the chance to finish the season on a plus note. The fact these are professional players with pride doesn't seem to factor into your bonehead theory either.
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He deserved to end the season on a positive note? Honestly, you have some odd notions.

Braves threw Blair, he tried his hardest, and had a super result. Nothing wrong with that.

Teheran pitching the finale was a gift to the fans by a front office who wanted the final game to be respectable in front of sellout close to an era. I get it.

Just wish they had lost one more game along the way and I'd probably would not have pitched Teheran and I think he'd have been just fine not pitching.

But it's happened and the braves are worse off by any measure picking 5 rather than 2. Oh well that's what happened.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
And JT could have gotten on a boat and killed himself on his day off. I know that is a horrible thing to say, but to not play a guy because of injury risk is a bad argument. What message do you send to your players/fans/and league by wrapping up any talent in bubble wrap and storing them for the winter in hopes of bettering a draft position. And when do you start this.. July? August? September? I mean we were out of the playoff hunt in June.. should we have just brought up Gwinnett to finish the season?
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That you don't want to risk your future to win games down the stretch of a 90 loss season?
 
clvclv said:
To you and some posters on this message board it wasn't significant.

I have a feeling that's not the way anyone in that dugout, members of the front office, former players, their families, and countless others that are a part of the organization felt.
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I agree, to plenty of people it wasn't insignificant, but I think its almost inarguable that in the LARGER picture winning that game doesn't mean anything aside from losing draft capital.

So the players feel good for a little while, but to me thats just not very significant.
 
rico43 said:
Jenkins pitched Friday and left the game with a stiff shoulder that was going to require further examination.

Considering the Braves stand to lose second and third-round picks if they sign free agents, how pivotal did you expect this draft to be?
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Considering I expect the Braves to be more competitive next year? I expect this is our last opportunity to draft in the top 5, let alone top-10 in awhile.

So considering that, yes I expect next years draft would be very pivotal -- it might be our last chance to add a top draft pick to the system for several years (if the plan starts to work). Considering that I think its pretty easy to say its pivotal.
 
rico43 said:
They used Blair, a 1-7 pitcher with an 8.00 ERA? Seems to me he fits your definition. After his crummy last start, Teheran deserved the chance to finish the season on a plus note. The fact these are professional players with pride doesn't seem to factor into your bonehead theory either.
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Professional players with pride shouldn't be placed above the larger picture for the organization --- do you pull a pitcher in the 8th if he's toast, but doesn't want to come out?? Isn't he a professional player with pride? The team comes first.

Also, if we disagree we disagree -- no worries there; but I don't see any reason to call someone a name or get personal.
 
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