The Trump Presidency

[Julio3000]

so I will ask the question

there have been people who post here who apparently buy into the seth rich and soros stuff

who believe the mueller investigation is a witch hunt

who seemingly are incapable of looking at basic data about guns and gun deaths

who see white men as an oppressed minority

who cite every stock market high as evidence Trumps policies are working and go silent when the market tanks

how far away are some of them from Sayoc...certainly to me there is a lot of irrationality in what passes for political opinion around here and elsewhere

I think of the people who are comfortable and stable and not particularly disaffected or disconnected who at the very least cast a blind eye towards, wink at, or even tacitly or explicitly perpetuate or encourage this craziness...if they have a moment of reflection when someone who is disaffected, disconnected, and unstable acts out in an extreme way.

 

[weso1]

I’m having a bit of a hard time with people using the Congressional baseball team shooting as a blanket inoculation against reflection about stirring up the crazy.

Is there anything specifically incendiary about Bernie Sanders’s rhetoric? Not that I’m aware of.

I was there at the ballfield when Steven Scalise almost died from a very, very angry, violent man who was incited, really, by rhetoric on the left. And this hasn’t been reported enough: When he came on to the ball field with a semiautomatic weapon, firing probably close to 200 shots at us, shooting five people and almost killing Steve Scalise, he was yelling, “This is for health care!” He also had a list of conservative legislators–Republicans–in his pocket, that he was going to kill.

This attack occured not too long after Bernie Sanders stated that thousands would die if Obamacare was repealed.

Black lives matter has a pretty big media presence and their rhetoric has been over the top and obviously we've seen attacks against police. SPLC inspired an attack on a christian group. Lots of anti male, anti white and anti Trump supporter rhetoric out there that is quite strong and out there in the media.

I do agree that Trump needs to reign it in.

 

[nsacpi]

And now we have Robert Bowers shooting Jews in Pittsburgh because he objects to the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society helping immigrants.

As I said the defining characteristic of the movement that has coalesced around Trump is craziness. And the sane people who have tagged along for the ride need to reflect on that. Dont be complicit.

 

[weso1]

And now we have Robert Bowers shooting Jews in Pittsburgh because he objects to the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society helping immigrants.

As I said the defining characteristic of the movement that has coalesced around Trump is craziness. And the sane people who have tagged along for the ride need to reflect on that. Dont be complicit.

This guy didn't like Trump. Reflect on that.

 

[Julio3000]

I was there at the ballfield when Steven Scalise almost died from a very, very angry, violent man who was incited, really, by rhetoric on the left. And this hasn’t been reported enough: When he came on to the ball field with a semiautomatic weapon, firing probably close to 200 shots at us, shooting five people and almost killing Steve Scalise, he was yelling, “This is for health care!” He also had a list of conservative legislators–Republicans–in his pocket, that he was going to kill.

This attack occured not too long after Bernie Sanders stated that thousands would die if Obamacare was repealed.

Black lives matter has a pretty big media presence and their rhetoric has been over the top and obviously we've seen attacks against police. SPLC inspired an attack on a christian group. Lots of anti male, anti white and anti Trump supporter rhetoric out there that is quite strong and out there in the media.

I do agree that Trump needs to reign it in.

Well, that’s nice to hear. I think any public figure is potentially playing with fire, I just think that Trump and his media amplifiers/enablers are particularly irresponsible.

Ok. Do you think that saying that more people will die without access to health care is factually or morally equivalent to fearmongering about immigrants and Muslims or passing along anti-Semitic conspiracy theories? I think the fact that the ballgame shooter was specifically targeting conservative Republicans makes it a moot point, but I’d not heard the “this is for health care” bit. Not that I think Sen Paul is lying, necessarily, but I’d not heard a second source for that claim.

I’m not denying that inflammatory rhetoric is “out there,” but is there an analog for, say, Fox News, and is that rhetoric mainstreamed to the extent that it is on the right?

You mentioned BLM. You might want to google Darren Seals and DeAndre Joshua.

Finally, do you want to list some specific incidents of left-inspired violence and contrast it with incidents of right-inspired violence?

 

[nsacpi]

This guy didn't like Trump. Reflect on that.

we all need to reflect on rhetoric that demonizes immigrants and refugees...that portrays them as invaders and rapists...pretty much all of us not so many generations ago have had family members who were helped by the kindness of strangers and groups like the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society

 

[Julio3000]

This guy didn't like Trump. Reflect on that.

He thought the migrant caravan was a Jewish conspiracy. He didn’t like Trump, apparently, because he though Trump was a tool of the “globalists.” So, er, I’m not sure this is the right tree to be barking up. The whole “globalist” anti-Semitic trope is a consequence of the mainstreaming of extremist ideas which has accelerated recently. That it gets out of hand in Sorecer’s Apprentice fashion is not surprising. This is the stuff that some folks here were trying to normalize post-Charlottesville.

 

[Julio3000]

This guy didn't like Trump. Reflect on that.

One reason he didn’t like Trump is that Trump wasn’t protective enough of “the Charlottesville 4,” the Rise Above Movement, and the Proud Boys.

Oh, yes. The Proud Boys. Totally not-racist folks who were apparently a cause celebre for this murderer, and, IIRC from the Charlottesville thread, for you, right?

Maybe, possibly, there’s some work to be done here, huh?

 

[Julio3000]

Upthread, I mentioned listening to a nationally-syndicated conservative talk radio show where two callers in a row suggested shooting the members of the migrant caravan if they reached the border. They used the term “invaders” repeatedly. The Pittsburgh synagogue shooter’s recent social media used the same word. This stuff matters.

 

[mqt]

This guy didn't like Trump. Reflect on that.

Trump is a symptom of what we’re talking about. This guy simply thought Trump wasn’t racist enough for his liking. The far right conspiracy theories still played a major role in this guy’s radicalization. To deny that feels nonsensical. This is why the Soros conspiracies going mainstream is such a bad thing. It’s a prettier version of the “Zionists control the world” narrative pushed heavily by the characters on the fringes. To see actual elected officials buy into Soros as a puppet master and spread it out is concerning as ****.

 

[weso1]

Proud boys is a multi racial group, but are anti Islam. The point of that repost was clearly about a slippery slope and how eventually they'll come for even the most mundane right wing group. I doubt this guy was a proud boys fan as guys like that hate the Proud Boys because they are multi racial and pro jew. I actually thought your description of Gavin was pretty good. He flirts with the lie, but doesn't cross it. I think that line is what matters though.

The right is actually pretty good at distancing themselves from actual racists and anti semites. The left likes to share stages with their anti semites and racists.

 

[nsacpi]

Proud boys is a multi racial group, but are anti Islam. The point of that repost was clearly about a slippery slope and how eventually they'll come for even the most mundane right wing group. I doubt this guy was a proud boys fan as guys like that hate the Proud Boys because they are multi racial and pro jew. I actually thought your description of Gavin was pretty good. He flirts with the lie, but doesn't cross it. I think that line is what matters though.

The right is actually pretty good at distancing themselves from actual racists and anti semites. The left likes to share stages with their anti semites and racists.

I see whataboutism is alive and well

 

[nsacpi]

I see House Majority Leader McCarthy has taken down a tweet about not allowing Soros and a couple other guys who coincidentally happen to be Jewish to buy the elections.

so subtle

 

[Julio3000]

Proud boys is a multi racial group, but are anti Islam. The point of that repost was clearly about a slippery slope and how eventually they'll come for even the most mundane right wing group. I doubt this guy was a proud boys fan as guys like that hate the Proud Boys because they are multi racial and pro jew. I actually thought your description of Gavin was pretty good. He flirts with the lie, but doesn't cross it. I think that line is what matters though.

The right is actually pretty good at distancing themselves from actual racists and anti semites. The left likes to share stages with their anti semites and racists.

Sooo how about the fact that the Venn diagram between the Proud Boys and the neo-Nazis in the recent street violence in NY was basically a circle. Mundane, huh?

 

[Julio3000]

I see House Majority Leader McCarthy has taken down a tweet about not allowing Soros and a couple other guys who coincidentally happen to be Jewish to buy the elections.

so subtle

I think it’s a good time to focus on the Caravan of Doom, since it was apparently an obsession of the Pittsburgh synagogue murderer. Where could he possibly have gotten the idea that it was being funded by scary Jews? Like, was there a national media outlet and members of Congress pushing that idea?

 

[weso1]

Upthread, I mentioned listening to a nationally-syndicated conservative talk radio show where two callers in a row suggested shooting the members of the migrant caravan if they reached the border. They used the term “invaders” repeatedly. The Pittsburgh synagogue shooter’s recent social media used the same word. This stuff matters.

I don't like that kind of rhetoric either. I'm just saying it goes both ways. Conservatives are constantly smeared as racist, sexist homophobes, often by mainstream figures. Anti white racism is pretty much allowed and sometimes encouraged on the left. Same is true with anti male sexism. Look at the recent hire by the New York Times. There's also a lot of anti christian hate out there. I mean, a lot of people on this board pretty much accepted that Kavanaugh was a rape gang leader, largely because of the way white men are portrayed in leftist circles. Trump's base is largely made up of folks fighting against that bigotry.

 

[weso1]

Sooo how about the fact that the Venn diagram between the Proud Boys and the neo-Nazis in the recent street violence in NY was basically a circle. Mundane, huh?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Was that a Vox thing? I know a couple of the Proud Boys arrested are married to black women and several of them were non white. Proud Boys are multi racial and pro Israel. That's hardly neo nazi stuff.

Where the Proud Boys deserve fair criticism is in their misogyny and anti Islam rhetoric, as well as their violence. I'm actually not a huge fan of the Proud Boys. I'm more a fan of Gavin. If you listen to him enough it's clear that he's not a white supremacist nor is he anti jew. I think it's just funny that the Proud Boys are taken so seriously as a hate group, yet the whole thing is just so silly how it started and the group itself. I mean, if ANTIFA would just leave them alone there really wouldn't be an issue with them. As far as I can tell all of the violence is Antifa scuffles.

That's President Clinton sharing a stage with a known anti semite and racist. Why is that ok on the left?

 

[Julio3000]

I don't like that kind of rhetoric either. I'm just saying it goes both ways. Conservatives are constantly smeared as racist, sexist homophobes, often by mainstream figures. Anti white racism is pretty much allowed and sometimes encouraged on the left. Same is true with anti male sexism. Look at the recent hire by the New York Times. There's also a lot of anti christian hate out there. I mean, a lot of people on this board pretty much accepted that Kavanaugh was a rape gang leader, largely because of the way white men are portrayed in leftist circles. Trump's base is largely made up of folks fighting against that bigotry.

I guess you mean Sarah Jeong, who was specifically threatened by the MAGA bomber dude.

Personally, I can’t say I accepted the idea of Brett Kavanaugh as a “rape gang leader.” But I’ve personally witnessed a consequence-free culture of impunity among men at so-called elite institutions wrt to sexual assault and date rape, so I admit that this informs my opinion of that issue.

I’ve also seen, in the last week, the Sayoc mail bombs, a guy in Kentucky who tried to shoot up a black church and settled for killing a couple of black grandparents in a grocery store, and the murders at the synagogue in Pittsburgh today. And, recently, the killing of 2Lt Richard Collins in Maryland. And the deaths of two men on a train in Oregon who were defending a Muslim woman from harassment. And the murder of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville. And the mosque shooting in Quebec City, and the van killings in Toronto. And the Bundy acolytes in Nevada who killed two cops and two civilians. And Dylann Roof, and the guy who shot up a Unitarian church in Tennessee with the express purpose of “killing liberals.” And the deaths of two Ferguson protestors who were shot and set on fire. And so on...

So I’m not unwilling to hear your grievances here, but what I’m seeing seems to, I dunno, look a little more serious than the song you’re singing.

 

[57Brave]

The left likes to share stages with their anti semites and racists.

That would have been Aretha Franklin's funeral
I assume your point is/was the late Rev Franklin and his daughter were militant leftists ?

They didnt "share a stage" these were the speakers the Franklin Family asked to speak at the memorial
Why cant people get facts , simple everyday facts, straight?

 

[Julio3000]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Was that a Vox thing? I know a couple of the Proud Boys arrested are married to black women and several of them were non white. Proud Boys are multi racial and pro Israel. That's hardly neo nazi stuff.

Where the Proud Boys deserve fair criticism is in their misogyny and anti Islam rhetoric, as well as their violence. I'm actually not a huge fan of the Proud Boys. I'm more a fan of Gavin. If you listen to him enough it's clear that he's not a white supremacist nor is he anti jew. I think it's just funny that the Proud Boys are taken so seriously as a hate group, yet the whole thing is just so silly how it started and the group itself. I mean, if ANTIFA would just leave them alone there really wouldn't be an issue with them. As far as I can tell all of the violence is Antifa scuffles.

That's President Clinton sharing a stage with a known anti semite and racist. Why is that ok on the left?

Um, the Proud Boys who were arrested after the recent street violence in NYC are ****ing neo-Nazis. There are scads of public-domain photos of them throwing white power salutes and pictures of the same guys in Charlottesville. There are straight-up neo-Nazis and skinheads yukking it up together. They’re all the same folks. Homey, they’re Nazis. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to accept. The purpose of that NYC event was for your bae Gavin to re-enact the murder of a Japanese socialist leader by an ultra-nationalist. That’s totally cool and non-inflammatory, huh,

Why are you trying to give these people cover? Why are you apologizing for them?

For my part, I’ll say **** Louis Farrakhan and anyone who supports him. But, the only thing I’ve seen NOI people doing in my community is selling bean pies and newspapers. I don’t care for them or their ideology, but I haven’t seen them attacking people in the streets. Nor am I parsing words about who their hate touches.