Things They Say
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57Brave
Well-known member
George Mason, delegate to Constitutional Convention, said in 1788 that a President should not have power to pardon because he might "pardon crimes which were advised by himself. It may happen, at some future day, that he will establish a monarchy, and destroy the republic."
57Brave
Well-known member
"She's desperate to hide the fact that as owner of the New York Stock Exchange,she spent $30M trying to buy a Senate seat. After a private coronavirus briefing, she dumped millions in stock. She profited off a pandemic while too many Georgians lost everything." ~Doug Collins
57Brave
Well-known member
Republicans spent most of 2020 rejecting science in the face of a runaway pandemic; now they’re rejecting democracy in the face of a clear election loss.
What do these rejections have in common? In each case, one of America’s two major parties simply refused to accept facts it didn’t like.
I’m not sure it’s right to say Republicans “believe” that, say, wearing face masks is useless or that there was widespread voter fraud. Framing the issue as one of belief suggests that some kind of evidence might change party loyalists’ minds.
In reality, what Republicans say they believe flows from what they want to do, whether it’s ignore a deadly disease or stay in power despite the voters’ verdict.
In other words, the point isn’t that the G.O.P. believes untrue things. It is, rather, that the party has become hostile to the very idea that there’s an objective reality that might conflict with its political goals.
Notice, by the way, that I’m not including qualifiers, like saying “some” Republicans. We’re talking about most of the party here. The Texas lawsuit calling on the Supreme Court to overturn the election was both absurd and deeply un-American, but more than 60 percent of Republicans in the House signed a brief supporting it, and only a handful of elected Republicans denounced the suit.
At this point, you aren’t considered a proper Republican unless you hate facts.
But when and how did the G.O.P. get that way? If you think it started with Donald Trump and will end when he leaves the scene (if he ever does), you’re naïve.
Republicans have been heading in this direction for decades. I’m not sure whether we can pinpoint the moment when the party began its descent into malignant madness, but the trajectory that led to this moment probably became irreversible under Ronald Reagan.
Republicans have, of course, turned Reagan into an icon, portraying him as the savior of a desperate, declining nation. Mostly, however, this is just propaganda. You’d never know from the legend that economic growth under Reagan was only slightly faster than it had been under Jimmy Carter, and slower than it would be under Bill Clinton.
And rapidly rising income inequality meant that a disproportionate share of the benefits from economic growth went to a small elite, with only a bit trickling down to most of the population. Poverty, measured properly, was higher in 1989 than it had been a decade earlier.
Anyway, gross domestic product isn’t the same thing as well-being. Other measures suggest that we were already veering off course.
For example, in 1980 life expectancy in America was similar to that in other wealthy nations; but the Reagan years mark the beginning of the great mortality divergence of the United States from the rest of the advanced world. Today, Americans can, on average, expect to live almost four fewer years than their counterparts in comparable countries.
The main point, however, is that under Reagan, irrationality and hatred for facts began to take over the G.O.P.
There has always been a conspiracy-theorizing, science-hating, anti-democratic faction in America. Before Reagan, however, mainstream conservatives and the Republican establishment refused to make alliance with that faction, keeping it on the political fringe.
Reagan, by contrast, brought the crazies inside the tent.
Many people are, I think, aware that Reagan embraced a crank economic doctrine — belief in the magical power of tax cuts. I’m not sure how many remember that the Reagan administration was also remarkably hostile to science.
Reagan’s ability to act on this hostility was limited by Democratic control of the House and the fact that the Senate still contained a number of genuinely moderate Republicans. Still, Reagan and his officials spent years denying the threat from acid rain while insisting that evolution was just a theory and promoting the teaching of creationism in schools.
This rejection of science partly reflected deference to special interests that didn’t want science-based regulation. Even more important, however, was the influence of the religious right, which first became a major political force under Reagan, has become ever more central to the Republican coalition and is now a major driver of the party’s rejection of facts — and democracy.
For rejecting facts comes naturally to people who insist that they’re acting on behalf of God. So does refusing to accept election results that don’t go their way. After all, if liberals are servants of Satan trying to destroy America’s soul, they shouldn’t be allowed to exercise power even if they should happen to win more votes.
Sure enough, a few days ago the televangelist Pat Robertson — who first became politically influential under Reagan — pronounced the Texas lawsuit a “miracle,” an intervention by God that would keep Trump in office.
The point is that the G.O.P. rejection of facts that has been so conspicuous this year wasn’t an aberration. What we’re seeing is the culmination of a degradation that began a long time ago and is almost surely irreversible.
What do these rejections have in common? In each case, one of America’s two major parties simply refused to accept facts it didn’t like.
I’m not sure it’s right to say Republicans “believe” that, say, wearing face masks is useless or that there was widespread voter fraud. Framing the issue as one of belief suggests that some kind of evidence might change party loyalists’ minds.
In reality, what Republicans say they believe flows from what they want to do, whether it’s ignore a deadly disease or stay in power despite the voters’ verdict.
In other words, the point isn’t that the G.O.P. believes untrue things. It is, rather, that the party has become hostile to the very idea that there’s an objective reality that might conflict with its political goals.
Notice, by the way, that I’m not including qualifiers, like saying “some” Republicans. We’re talking about most of the party here. The Texas lawsuit calling on the Supreme Court to overturn the election was both absurd and deeply un-American, but more than 60 percent of Republicans in the House signed a brief supporting it, and only a handful of elected Republicans denounced the suit.
At this point, you aren’t considered a proper Republican unless you hate facts.
But when and how did the G.O.P. get that way? If you think it started with Donald Trump and will end when he leaves the scene (if he ever does), you’re naïve.
Republicans have been heading in this direction for decades. I’m not sure whether we can pinpoint the moment when the party began its descent into malignant madness, but the trajectory that led to this moment probably became irreversible under Ronald Reagan.
Republicans have, of course, turned Reagan into an icon, portraying him as the savior of a desperate, declining nation. Mostly, however, this is just propaganda. You’d never know from the legend that economic growth under Reagan was only slightly faster than it had been under Jimmy Carter, and slower than it would be under Bill Clinton.
And rapidly rising income inequality meant that a disproportionate share of the benefits from economic growth went to a small elite, with only a bit trickling down to most of the population. Poverty, measured properly, was higher in 1989 than it had been a decade earlier.
Anyway, gross domestic product isn’t the same thing as well-being. Other measures suggest that we were already veering off course.
For example, in 1980 life expectancy in America was similar to that in other wealthy nations; but the Reagan years mark the beginning of the great mortality divergence of the United States from the rest of the advanced world. Today, Americans can, on average, expect to live almost four fewer years than their counterparts in comparable countries.
The main point, however, is that under Reagan, irrationality and hatred for facts began to take over the G.O.P.
There has always been a conspiracy-theorizing, science-hating, anti-democratic faction in America. Before Reagan, however, mainstream conservatives and the Republican establishment refused to make alliance with that faction, keeping it on the political fringe.
Reagan, by contrast, brought the crazies inside the tent.
Many people are, I think, aware that Reagan embraced a crank economic doctrine — belief in the magical power of tax cuts. I’m not sure how many remember that the Reagan administration was also remarkably hostile to science.
Reagan’s ability to act on this hostility was limited by Democratic control of the House and the fact that the Senate still contained a number of genuinely moderate Republicans. Still, Reagan and his officials spent years denying the threat from acid rain while insisting that evolution was just a theory and promoting the teaching of creationism in schools.
This rejection of science partly reflected deference to special interests that didn’t want science-based regulation. Even more important, however, was the influence of the religious right, which first became a major political force under Reagan, has become ever more central to the Republican coalition and is now a major driver of the party’s rejection of facts — and democracy.
For rejecting facts comes naturally to people who insist that they’re acting on behalf of God. So does refusing to accept election results that don’t go their way. After all, if liberals are servants of Satan trying to destroy America’s soul, they shouldn’t be allowed to exercise power even if they should happen to win more votes.
Sure enough, a few days ago the televangelist Pat Robertson — who first became politically influential under Reagan — pronounced the Texas lawsuit a “miracle,” an intervention by God that would keep Trump in office.
The point is that the G.O.P. rejection of facts that has been so conspicuous this year wasn’t an aberration. What we’re seeing is the culmination of a degradation that began a long time ago and is almost surely irreversible.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
we see it here with certain posters posting deza on the efficacy of masks or about election fraud...it is what it is
57Brave
Well-known member
taking us back to the question I've been asking since November, where do we go from here.
Or
are we just in an endless game of whack-a-mole ?
This past weekend in DC was troubling
dont remember ever reading of street riots after an election - over the outcome of the election
///////////////
and yes,
Lets label it what it was --- a mob riot
Or
are we just in an endless game of whack-a-mole ?
This past weekend in DC was troubling
dont remember ever reading of street riots after an election - over the outcome of the election
///////////////
and yes,
Lets label it what it was --- a mob riot
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nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
trumpism is a fever...it will burn itself out
Jaw
It's OVER 5,000!
This entire screed is seen through such a poorly educated lens that it's easy to pick apart, but this has to be the worst part. It's widely debated among smart and well informed people exactly what caused the obesity boom of the 80s that led to declining life expectancy. The primary causes are thought to be changes in food technology, the rise of fast food, the "low fat" diet fad that lives to this day, and affordable personal computers and home video game systems.
What is NOT thought to be a factor by any serious person is that mean old Ronny Ray Gun broke something.
Do you actually read this stuff before you repost it? I can't believe that anyone would read that and think, "YES! Reagan is the reason we all got fat and started dying of heart disease! I have to share this information with the world!"
Read things critically, please. There's not a single shred of logic in this or most of the stuff you repost. You do far better and often make good points when you post your own words, but the information echo chamber you seem to have confined yourself to is intellectually barren.
57Brave
Well-known member
we disagree.
I will hold the Reagan Revolution and have held Reagan Revolution responsible for the mindset that brought us Trumpism. Bush43/Iraq. and not only predicted it but have watched my gut feeling disappointingly be born out. For 40 years
As far as Reagan personally ?
He was a soap salesman
/////////////////
These ideas in this article are not new.
And really have nothing to do with what you mis label the "echo chamber"
What they are is one mans honest critique of what many on the right for lack of a better word worship.
Witness the conversations here on trickle down. In the face of 2 economic collapses , a lost white house and a divorce from the first proponent shortly after the roll out, people still deny the abject failure trickle down has been for the entire economy.
The "Reagan Revolution" lives if no where else than in your defense .
Which is the point of the article. Facts no longer have meaning when they fly in the face of , the "echo chamber" ????
/////////
When discussing Reagan please take the time to realize he was a puppet.
A good puppet but never the less, a puppet.
Look behind the screen
I will hold the Reagan Revolution and have held Reagan Revolution responsible for the mindset that brought us Trumpism. Bush43/Iraq. and not only predicted it but have watched my gut feeling disappointingly be born out. For 40 years
As far as Reagan personally ?
He was a soap salesman
/////////////////
These ideas in this article are not new.
And really have nothing to do with what you mis label the "echo chamber"
What they are is one mans honest critique of what many on the right for lack of a better word worship.
Witness the conversations here on trickle down. In the face of 2 economic collapses , a lost white house and a divorce from the first proponent shortly after the roll out, people still deny the abject failure trickle down has been for the entire economy.
The "Reagan Revolution" lives if no where else than in your defense .
Which is the point of the article. Facts no longer have meaning when they fly in the face of , the "echo chamber" ????
/////////
When discussing Reagan please take the time to realize he was a puppet.
A good puppet but never the less, a puppet.
Look behind the screen
sturg33
I
well for one I'm not a Republican.
two, the burden is on you to prove they are effective. There is no proof they are, anywhere.
In fact, it was the "experts" - not Republicans - who told us how useless they were this year. The WHO, the CDC, the Surgeon General, Lord Fauci.
They've changed their mind. What that tells me is the "science is fluid" and maybe we should stop labeling everything that goes against today's narrative as disinformation...
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
no i would say that you have posted a lot of stuff on masks that is deza
you post misleading deaths data on Sweden knowing their way of reporting data always will show a downward trend and that it eventually gets revised up
you post about little blips in mask wearing places like Hawaii, New Zealand, Australia and Japan (the sheeple countries) and then its crickets when things don't spiral out of control in those places like it does in other places
you post misleading deaths data on Sweden knowing their way of reporting data always will show a downward trend and that it eventually gets revised up
you post about little blips in mask wearing places like Hawaii, New Zealand, Australia and Japan (the sheeple countries) and then its crickets when things don't spiral out of control in those places like it does in other places
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sturg33
I
There are literally dozens of examples of mask mandates correlating to large spikes in infection. When I post those examples, I get from you, as you say, crickets
There are dozens of examples of cities with strict mask mandates doing worse than cities without them.
There are plenty of examples where the opposite is also true.
I'm not arguing that masks are actively making things worse. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that they are a reason for things get better. If they did, you wouldn't have literally dozens of examples of cities who have worse infection spreads despite their mask compliance.
The US has one of the highest mask compliance rates in the world. So does Europe. Yet the virus is spreading.
What is more likely?
A.) Decades of research on masks being ineffective for coronaviruses was true
B.) This one new virus is not like the others. Masks are critical. And the only reason masks don't seem to be helping is because people aren't wearing them properly
There are dozens of examples of cities with strict mask mandates doing worse than cities without them.
There are plenty of examples where the opposite is also true.
I'm not arguing that masks are actively making things worse. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that they are a reason for things get better. If they did, you wouldn't have literally dozens of examples of cities who have worse infection spreads despite their mask compliance.
The US has one of the highest mask compliance rates in the world. So does Europe. Yet the virus is spreading.
What is more likely?
A.) Decades of research on masks being ineffective for coronaviruses was true
B.) This one new virus is not like the others. Masks are critical. And the only reason masks don't seem to be helping is because people aren't wearing them properly
