Top 3 and Bottom 3 Hart/Coppolella moves.

weso1

weso1

<B>Clique Leader</B>
Bottom 3:

3: Gattis for Folty, Ruiz and whatever.

Just not a big believer in Folty. The guy has great stuff but I just get the feel that he won't put it together. Meh on Ruiz. A position of need, but the chances of him succeeding seem unlikely. The good news is that I thought Gattis was our least valuable asset. A mediocre DH. With that in mind Folty could wind up being a decent closer and if you get a decent closer for Gattis then that's pretty solid to be honest.

2: Simmons for Newcomb:

The Braves put all of their eggs in one basket in this trade. Ellis is a nice player and might be a bit underrated as a prospect, but essentially this is all about the bet that Newcomb becomes not just an ace, but an elite ace. It's just hard for me to believe that we couldn't have gotten a bit more for Simmons in the end and not taken on such a risk.

1: Wood and Peraza for Olivera, Bird, Paco and compensation pick

I think we were all just hoping that Wood and Peraza would net us a lot more than this. I get that there is some potential there, but Olivera is quickly running out of potential, Paco had to have another surgery and Bird is a mediocre prospect at best. The only two interesting things left in this deal is can Olivera hit at the major league level and what prospect can we get with that pick. I wouldn't be shocked if we wind up getting absolutely nothing from this deal. Very disappointing considering what we gave up.

Top 3:

3: Gosselin for Toussaint and Arroyo:

I believe the Braves came close to creating a new rule with this trade. They essentially paid the Diamondbacks money to obtain one of their top prospects. I feel like this is something MLB would grump about. The #3 choice was really tough for me as there were a lot of honorable mentions, but just the idea that the Braves made a lot of pundits grump about fairness makes me think they did a damn good job here. But in the end we got a high ceiling prospect for cash which should have no impact on future spending. In other words we got Toussaint for nothing as far as it concerns me as a fan. I think you could argue this was the best deal of any other deal made by Hart/JC if not for:

2: Kimbrel and BJ Upton for Wisler, Maybin, a draft pick and a bucket full of future cash:

At the time of the trade Kimbrel was a strong asset. We traded one strong asset for Wisler (an asset), Maybin (a liability), The draft pick (an asset) and a bucket full of future cash (a strong asset). So Kimbrel and the future cash offset each other value wise. Both were strong assets. And let's assume that Maybin and Upton offset each other. Both had surprising years, but are basically equal in value. So taking money out of the equation that basically leaves the Braves with Wisler and the draft pick in excess value. Let me make that clear, we got Wisler and Austin Riley for nothing. You would think that would be the best deal the Braves made except for...

1: Shelby Miller traded for Inciarte, Blair and Swanson:

Miller and Inciarte are essentially a wash. I could easily argue, without using Coppolella spin, that we will get more value out of Inciarte then we will get out of Miller. So let's cancel those two out. We gave up a rube for Blair and Swanson. In other words we got Swanson and Blair for nothing. Swanson has a chance to be the next Barry Larkin or Derek Jeter. Reasonably he's likely to be Erick Aybar as it pertains to WAR. And there is Blair who has a decent chance to be a solid 2-3 starter. Just an unbelieveable trade if you're the Braves. Oh and we have some money to work with early on.
 
I'm a bigger fan of Folty. At worst I think he can become a closer quality reliever. He's also shown flashes of absolute dominance. We also got Andrew Thurman in that deal. He's ranked 22nd of our prospects by MLB.com. He's got a chance.

As for the Simmons deal, I don't think that Newcomb has to become an ace for it to work out. Simmons is a deal right now but as his salary grows he'll be less and less of a value. His hitting will have to improve for him to still be a deal and that's not a good bet. He is what he is. Newcomb has as high a ceiling as any young pitcher in the game. Even if he becomes a major league average starter it's still not a terrible trade.

Ellis gets overlooked. I don't think he sticks as a starter but I could see him becoming a late inning reliever very easily.

Aybar gets completely ignored in the Simmons deal because he's a one year rental. I think that's a mistake. He's someone we could still flip for another prospect at some point this year.

There's no defending the Olivera trade.

Here are mine:

Bottom-

3- Signing Alberto Callaspo- Sometimes the worst moves aren't the big ones, they're the smaller moves that are just indefensible. A one year 3 million dollar deal for Callaspo was just stupid. The guy had a .580 OPS in 2014 at age 31 and can only really play third base or pinch hit. How does he even get a major league deal much less one paying him $3 million? There's not logic behind this.

2- Signing Dian Toscano- Toscano is another indefensible, illogical signing. Toscano was a pretty obscure guy who wasn't really highly sought after. We signed him to a 4 year, $6 million contract with a $1.5 million buyout. If we were the Dodgers this would be our Snapple money but we're not the Dodgers. There was absolutely no reason to give Toscano that much money. There are minor league free agents that could be had for nothing that are on this guy's level.

1- The Hector Olivera Trade- This was entirely a case of the Johns getting over infatuated with a player. I firmly believe the Dodgers got rid of Olivera for a reason. When they got him in they saw he wasn't nearly the player he was hyped to be and spun him off while they could still unload some money and get stuff back. When we traded for him he was talked about as being a guy who could hit .300+ with 20-25 HRs a year at 3B. Now we're hoping he can play left while giving us average offense. If he hits .280 with 12 HRs we would consider ourselves lucky. Now, not only are we without Alex Wood and Peraza (who the Reds would have paid us handsomely for), we're stuck paying a substantial amount of money to a guy who probably has no better than a coin flip's chance of even being worthy of a major league roster spot, much less being a contributor. This is the worst trade the Braves have made since the Tex deal. And at least then we knew we were getting an MVP quality player.

Dishonorable Mention- Kimbrel and Upton for Wisler and Co- I'm not a big believer in Whisler. I think he's most likely a back of the rotation starter with a slim chance at becoming a mid-rotation guy.

Best Deals-

3- Stults, Callaspo, Jamie, and Thomas for Uribe and Withrow- This is the kind of trade you see proposed on message boards where the poster's team gives up useless parts and the other team gives up valuable stuff. Callaspo was terrible. Stults was on the verge of getting DFA'd, we were done with Jamie, and Thomas was a spare part. In return we got a guy in Withrow who could easily be an excellent setup man this year and Uribe who we were able to flip for prospects. I still don't understand this for the Dodgers.

2- Gosselin for Toussaint and Arroyo- Toussaint has ace potential. Granted, any pitcher that far off has a low chance of reaching that potential but it's there. Guys with Toussaint's ceiling aren't often traded and when they are it's usually part of a big deal. Being able to get him just for taking on Arroyo's salary was incredible. It's one of the more creative moves I've seen made and one that really has zero affect on us long term. We really didn't have any use for current money anyway.

1- The Jason Heyward-Shelby Miller Trades- The front officer turned one year of Jason Heyward, Jordan Walden, and fungible relief prospect into an All Star season from Miller, Ender Inciarte, Aaron Blair, and Dansby Swanson. We had a very good farm system heading into this offseason and we still netted two of our current top 5 prospects from this in Swanson and Blair. Ender Inciarte is incredibly valuable too. It was tough to see Heyward go but we ultimately cleaned up.
 
The Kimbrel trade was almost unanimously considered a good trade at the time and I think most of us still look upon it very favorably. The Miller trade to Arizona looks to be even better than the Kimbrel trade. I think those two stand out as best.

My own take on Heyward-Miller trade has been revised upward quite a bit in light of the season Miller had and subsequent haul we got for him from Arizona.
 
I think the Simmons trade gets a bit too much criticism because we loved watching Simmons so much. I agree that Simmons is a very valuable player, but the return was pretty fair. If Newcomb becomes a good SP then we probably come out ahead. Aybar, while not as good as Simmons, is an effective starting SS. He will help the 2016 team as long as he's here and hopefully we can flip him to a contender for some more pieces for our rebuild. Add in Ellis, and I think the return was certainly fair.
 
some of the moves I disliked were the Jordan P. trade for 250K of intl slot money. I know this has been debated, but still didn't like it. I hated the Dian Tos. signing. pointless and I doubt he ever makes it back from the minors. HO trade. this is a tricky one. I like Bird/Paco/Comp Pick for pieces the Braves didn't value anymore. I just don't like the age of our principle return. I just think JJ/Wood/Peraza could have brought back more.. however, I do think this trade will eventually be called a win by more people than not.

I have to disagree with Wisler comment. I think he will be fine as a solid #3 pitcher and will probably be traded in a few years for a nice return.

I also completely disagree with the Gattis being a bad trade. We got Thurman (not good)/Rio (prospect in an important position)/Folty (needs to be given a chance, but could become very dominant) for Gattis who can only be a DH and will start to fall off fast as he ages. I loved the white bear but we sold him at his highest and got some great potential in return.

I also have been impressed with some of the other garbage signings.. Gomes (who we got a good org player for)/and the cheap pitchers we keep snatching up. Grilli was a great signing. think of the return we could have gotten for him if he didn't get injured.. I am still bummed about that...

honorable mentions was getting intl slot money and Viz for TLS.. also getting Uribe for a bunch of garbage.. touki..

honestly, outside of Niner (who I heard is really fun at parties) most everyone here would have a list of transactions they liked much longer than transactions they didn't.
 
striker42 said:
I'm a bigger fan of Folty. At worst I think he can become a closer quality reliever. He's also shown flashes of absolute dominance. We also got Andrew Thurman in that deal. He's ranked 22nd of our prospects by MLB.com. He's got a chance.

As for the Simmons deal, I don't think that Newcomb has to become an ace for it to work out. Simmons is a deal right now but as his salary grows he'll be less and less of a value. His hitting will have to improve for him to still be a deal and that's not a good bet. He is what he is. Newcomb has as high a ceiling as any young pitcher in the game. Even if he becomes a major league average starter it's still not a terrible trade.

Ellis gets overlooked. I don't think he sticks as a starter but I could see him becoming a late inning reliever very easily.

Aybar gets completely ignored in the Simmons deal because he's a one year rental. I think that's a mistake. He's someone we could still flip for another prospect at some point this year.

There's no defending the Olivera trade.

Here are mine:

Bottom-

3- Signing Alberto Callaspo- Sometimes the worst moves aren't the big ones, they're the smaller moves that are just indefensible. A one year 3 million dollar deal for Callaspo was just stupid. The guy had a .580 OPS in 2014 at age 31 and can only really play third base or pinch hit. How does he even get a major league deal much less one paying him $3 million? There's not logic behind this.

2- Signing Dian Toscano- Toscano is another indefensible, illogical signing. Toscano was a pretty obscure guy who wasn't really highly sought after. We signed him to a 4 year, $6 million contract with a $1.5 million buyout. If we were the Dodgers this would be our Snapple money but we're not the Dodgers. There was absolutely no reason to give Toscano that much money. There are minor league free agents that could be had for nothing that are on this guy's level.

1- The Hector Olivera Trade- This was entirely a case of the Johns getting over infatuated with a player. I firmly believe the Dodgers got rid of Olivera for a reason. When they got him in they saw he wasn't nearly the player he was hyped to be and spun him off while they could still unload some money and get stuff back. When we traded for him he was talked about as being a guy who could hit .300+ with 20-25 HRs a year at 3B. Now we're hoping he can play left while giving us average offense. If he hits .280 with 12 HRs we would consider ourselves lucky. Now, not only are we without Alex Wood and Peraza (who the Reds would have paid us handsomely for), we're stuck paying a substantial amount of money to a guy who probably has no better than a coin flip's chance of even being worthy of a major league roster spot, much less being a contributor. This is the worst trade the Braves have made since the Tex deal. And at least then we knew we were getting an MVP quality player.

Dishonorable Mention- Kimbrel and Upton for Wisler and Co- I'm not a big believer in Whisler. I think he's most likely a back of the rotation starter with a slim chance at becoming a mid-rotation guy.

Best Deals-

3- Stults, Callaspo, Jamie, and Thomas for Uribe and Withrow- This is the kind of trade you see proposed on message boards where the poster's team gives up useless parts and the other team gives up valuable stuff. Callaspo was terrible. Stults was on the verge of getting DFA'd, we were done with Jamie, and Thomas was a spare part. In return we got a guy in Withrow who could easily be an excellent setup man this year and Uribe who we were able to flip for prospects. I still don't understand this for the Dodgers.

2- Gosselin for Toussaint and Arroyo- Toussaint has ace potential. Granted, any pitcher that far off has a low chance of reaching that potential but it's there. Guys with Toussaint's ceiling aren't often traded and when they are it's usually part of a big deal. Being able to get him just for taking on Arroyo's salary was incredible. It's one of the more creative moves I've seen made and one that really has zero affect on us long term. We really didn't have any use for current money anyway.

1- The Jason Heyward-Shelby Miller Trades- The front officer turned one year of Jason Heyward, Jordan Walden, and fungible relief prospect into an All Star season from Miller, Ender Inciarte, Aaron Blair, and Dansby Swanson. We had a very good farm system heading into this offseason and we still netted two of our current top 5 prospects from this in Swanson and Blair. Ender Inciarte is incredibly valuable too. It was tough to see Heyward go but we ultimately cleaned up.
Click to expand...

Not to mention Tyrell Jenkins... This is easily the best series of trades
 
What quantifies top?

To me the best trade from a value perspective the Braves made was 100% Uribe and Withrow for Callaspo, Jaime, Thomas and Stults. Why it worked was we got a guy who was our best player for a few months and gave up 2 of our worst players. Jaime and Withrow are a wash. So we basically traded Thomas and trash for a solid 3B. And flipped Uribe and KJ for 2 solid pitching prospects. To me that's the clearest win for the Braves. Only risk is Thomas developing into a decent setup man.

To me the worst trade was giving up Wood and Peraza for Olivera. Main reason is there's a good chance Olivera won't be worth Peraza's value in the majors. And we give up one of the better young pitchers in baseball as well? Olivera was obviously someone that Hart/Scherholz had a boner for and weren't happy they lost out on. But they doubled down and overpaid by trade with the Dodgers. Who had no place for Olivera. It was just dumb all around.
 
Burnedstang said:
Not to mention Tyrell Jenkins... This is easily the best series of trades
Click to expand...

Cant believe I forgot Jenkins. I had hoped for a better year from him but I'll take a healthy year. This coming year will be an important one for him. He needs to translate his stuff and athleticism into dominance.
 
Best:
1. Miller trade: Useful regular + future SS (with upside) and a close to ready SP (prob a good 4 with upside to be 3)
2. Heyward trade: Miller was big for us, go us the number one trade, and Jenkins was minor league pitcher of the year. Not sure Jenkins is a starter but it's one year of Jenkins
3. Touki trade: I don't even think Touki will make it. But I love the creativity, that we spent money, and the talent to potentially get an ace

Worst:
1. Olivera---------Still can't get anyone to explain it to me. I think they fell in love with the idea of Olivera costing 4 million to a max of 8.5 million. Thinking he's a bargain...but since he can't field or stay healthy....
2. Upton trade: If Fried is good this isn't bad. If Mallex is Ben Revere it's not bad. DPeterson hit well before the bus crash. But I thought a power RH bat would get more, esp at the deadline. And we traded for a poo poo platter
3. Simba trade: Love Newcombe but you have to get more for the best defensive player in the game. Maybe it's not so bad if they already knew they were getting Swanson, but I still don't like it.

I liked the Kimbrel trade at the time. Now I don't. BJ is up through 17. I'd rather keep BJ and get the better return. If we paid him last year no big deal b/c we cut salary and sucked. If we pay him this year it's no big deal because we cut salary and will suck. Then cut him for 17. I'd pay 15 million for the haul that the padres got.

I like the Gattis trade. Gattis wasn't that good. We actually got a decent position prospect in Ruiz (I know he struggled but he's still got a shot). We got a high upside pitcher who can prob be a dominant reliever and potential innings eater too. Plus we can pick up Gattis next year when the Astros cut him.

Callaspo signing was fine in the context of the time. Then like the first poster said we turned him into Uribe (who helped us) and a good bp piece that is controllable and cheap. Then we turned Uribe and KJ into a good deal. I think both those pitchers have a shot to be back end pitchers and that is a lot for half a year of Uribe and KJ.
 
Don't have a top/bottom 3 at this time, but I would say the worst move they've made is trading for Trevor Cahill. While we didn't give up a lot, we still sent a live body to the Diamondbacks for the privilege of paying Cahill a little over 5 million dollars to be hot garbage.

Best move is obviously the Shelby Miller trade(s).
 
Carp said:
Don't have a top/bottom 3 at this time, but I would say the worst move they've made is trading for Trevor Cahill. While we didn't give up a lot, we still sent a live body to the Diamondbacks for the privilege of paying Cahill a little over 5 million dollars to be hot garbage.

Best move is obviously the Shelby Miller trade(s).
Click to expand...

Didn't we get a draft pick connected to that trade?
 
striker42 said:
Pretty sure the deals were connected. Add Minter and the Braves end looks much better.
Click to expand...

Right, the two are almost certainly connected. And I won't ever have a problem with using money that wasn't going to be used elsewhere to get a guy with a chance to rebound and flip. Sure, it didn't work out, but I have no issue with that deal at all.

The only trade I still don't like is the Olivera trade, but the jury is still out even on that one. Newcomb doesn't have to become an ace for the Simmons deal to make sense, especially in light of adding Swanson.
 
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