Tapate50
Well-known member
And there it is.
Trade Deadline: What are you willing to do?
- Thread starter Horsehide Harry
- Start date
And there it is.
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
Especially with Cumberland (hopefully) making his way in a couple years.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
If we will be as active on the FA market as rumored... Then we can be a contender. I want the best defensive and offensive catcher in the game
zbhargrove
Well-known member
Cumberland will never be close to the defensive player Lucroy is... If he creates a real crisis... You can trade Freeman and move one of them to first
He's 30 and has caught 8,685 innings (about 6 full years worth) throughout his professional career. For a team that wont contend until past his prime, this would be one of the most boneheaded moves of all time.
I went back to see how catchers in recent history have performed after age 32:
Posada 107 wRC+
Ruiz 105 wRC+
McCann 104 wRC+
Martin 101 wRC+
4 have been better than league average (combined) over the past 6 years.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
It's the length of the deal that exposes you to financial risk. A five-year extension of Lucroy takes you through the 2022 season when he will be 36.
If we sign Jason Castro to a four year deal this off-season it takes you through the 2020 season when he will be 33. I'm not arguing that Castro is the better player. But that kind of deal is much less risky that what is likely to happen with Lucroy.
And keep in mind that we're not likely to get any discount from either one. We'll be paying full market price for expected production. Just one will take us further out with more risk of steep age-associated decline. And it will take us through some years when we will be wanting that financial flexibility.
If we sign Jason Castro to a four year deal this off-season it takes you through the 2020 season when he will be 33. I'm not arguing that Castro is the better player. But that kind of deal is much less risky that what is likely to happen with Lucroy.
And keep in mind that we're not likely to get any discount from either one. We'll be paying full market price for expected production. Just one will take us further out with more risk of steep age-associated decline. And it will take us through some years when we will be wanting that financial flexibility.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
If giles says it, it's fact... No discussion, no argument...
The other thing is it would allow him these next few months to get to know the pitchers, so he's not spending St getting to know everyone.
I could definitely see a trade for Lucroy or Derek Norris.
Perhaps you'd like to give him examples of catchers who have performed really well after the age of 32? Even all the HOF catchers generally fell off a cliff starting about age 33-34. You're making an argument that Lucroy will age well based simply on the fact you think so, history really doesn't support that argument. Lucroy is going to want to get paid big time since he signed that below average deal the first time around and this will be his only chance to get big money. Signing him to a 5 year deal for big money would be super risky.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
I just see Lucroy as an upgrade over several areas. He's immediately the best bat in the lineup... He's arguably the best catcher defensively in the game. He's arguably the best pitch framer in the game. Therefore, not only is he improving the lineup, he's improving our defense and he's helping out our young pitchers.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
We've rarely seen catchers as athletic as Lucroy.... Okay don't sign him to a 5 year deal... See if he'll do a 3 year deal. I don't care but if you trade for Lucroy and you plan to spend a lot in free agency with shorter length deals then you still have a shot to compete the next 2-3 years just in time for the real young talent to be ready.
I provided more discussion on the topic that you have. So this is just a worthless post.
That's where you're losing some people. Many have already assumed we won't compete until 2019.
Tapate50
Well-known member
He won't sign a 3 year deal. No point discussing it.
Even Pudge fell off offensively around that point, and he's arguably the most athletic catcher of all time (and had the likely PEDs help there too). I think the chances of him signing a 3 year deal are pretty much nil since he's only made like 12 mil his entire career due to his horrible extension, and will be going all out to get the best contract he can. I think he'll be great next year and in 2018, but after that he probably starts to fall off, with him likely not being good at all his last two years of a 5 year deal. Considering the last two years of his deal would be the area where we have the best chance of competing that's just a really risky move.
Freeman is not only a better hitter now, but will likely be over the next few years.
What support do you have that anyone besides you would argue he's the best defensive catcher in the game?
WHat support do you have that he's the best pitch framer?
Not this: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2015/7/5/8893867/cubs-giants-pirates-catcher-framing-revisited
zbhargrove
Well-known member
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2014/6/6/5787270/jonathan-lucroy-is-the-best-catcher-in-baseball
https://theringer.com/jonathan-lucroy-mlb-trade-deadline-b26666ed6bc#.a2mydoaz5
So he may have fallen off in the pitch framing department this year but has most certainly been in the argument for best pitch framer in his career. I said "arguably" and these articles certainly support my stance that there's an argument to be made.
As far as him being better than Freeman right now:
Freeman .125 wRC+ 2.4 WAR
Lucroy .122 wRC+ 2.8 WAR
Failing to see how Freeman is clearly better right now
You claimed Lucroy would immediately be the best bat in the lineup, GF responded by saying Freddie was a better hitter. And now you posted stats that show Freddie is the better hitter, come on man.