Trades reviewd

[bravesfanMatt]

But what's the cut-off? Lincecum was absolutely elite; he just fell off and wasn't anymore after a while. And Arrieta is absolutely elite now. I know that because of the way he's pitched for the last 2 years. I just think calling a guy like Bumgarner 'near elite' is crazy. The guy has a career ERA and FIP of just over 3, his career K/BB is over 4, and he's pitched over 200 IP each of the last 5 years. Put up about 21 WAR in those 5 years. And he's getting better.

And if you're going to have a standard of having to have done it for a while, how in the world can you include Corey Kluber?

FTR, I said Madison was elite. I also said Degrom is close to elite, just hard for me to say he 'IS' because he has only been elite for a year.. and pretty good for half a year last year. I just think it is hard to 'label' a pitcher while they are still pitching. Will Timmy be remembered when it is all said and done as an elite pitcher.. no.. just someone who was good. Think of that Florida pitcher who twisted all about. He was elite for a few years as well.. but like Timmy lost it.. I am not afraid to say Madison is elite because he has been doing this for 5+years.. sure he may lose it, and my opinion may change.. I wouldn't want to call Degrom elite right now though.. I would want him on my team however...

 

[Russ2dollas]

I liked all the trades....except the Olivera one...I hate the Olivera trade. And I hate that we didn't get to flip Grilli (for us and for him).

The other part in evaluating these trades is what we do with the money we freed up. If it goes into the org's pockets or gets spent on another KK or Upton then the trades go down. If we make some smart signings that work out, then things go up big time.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

This is fair.

I still can't see how the Jup trade has to be tabled until the results are in. We had Jup for this year and that was it. We got back potential. In my mind even the possibility of potential is better than one year of services from a guy who's production wasn't going to win us anything in the long run. Sure we might have gotten another 1st round pick when he left in FA, but that is just potential too.. So dumping Jup and getting back potential was a WIN.. and it is impossible to say who else we could have gotten since we don't know who else was offered by other teams. So to say, we could have gotten more is irrelevant.

 

[smootness]

I still can't see how the Jup trade has to be tabled until the results are in. We had Jup for this year and that was it. We got back potential. In my mind even the possibility of potential is better than one year of services from a guy who's production wasn't going to win us anything in the long run. Sure we might have gotten another 1st round pick when he left in FA, but that is just potential too.. So dumping Jup and getting back potential was a WIN.. and it is impossible to say who else we could have gotten since we don't know who else was offered by other teams. So to say, we could have gotten more is irrelevant.

I hear you, but in reality, if all the guys we got back in the trade end up as busts, no one will look back on the trade and call it a win for the Braves. I think we won it, but I also understand the jury is still out on it ultimately.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

I hear you, but in reality, if all the guys we got back in the trade end up as busts, no one will look back on the trade and call it a win for the Braves. I think we won it, but I also understand the jury is still out on it ultimately.

I understand that.. maybe calling it a win is a bit much in my case.. just a necessity.. But it is really hard to quantify a trade really.. think about the original Jup trade. Jup and CJ are no longer on the Braves and Prado is long gone from the Dbacks. I think Delgado is floating around somewhere and who knows about those other minor leaguers... But to truly evaluate wouldn't you now have to look at who you got in return for trading away the key components of those trades. So who 'Won' that original trade? Braves.. hard to say now.

 

[thewupk]

I still can't see how the Jup trade has to be tabled until the results are in. We had Jup for this year and that was it. We got back potential. In my mind even the possibility of potential is better than one year of services from a guy who's production wasn't going to win us anything in the long run. Sure we might have gotten another 1st round pick when he left in FA, but that is just potential too.. So dumping Jup and getting back potential was a WIN.. and it is impossible to say who else we could have gotten since we don't know who else was offered by other teams. So to say, we could have gotten more is irrelevant.

If the talent you get back for a player in his walk year never amounts to anything then you lost the trade.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

If the talent you get back for a player in his walk year never amounts to anything then you lost the trade.

quantify amounts to anything?? has Jace amounted to enough to call it even?? Padres finished well out of the playoffs.. so they are going to win the trade if Mallex, Fried, or Dustin don't pan out to be stars?? Are fans and FO excited about these players?? would they be excited about this team last season with Jup on the team? would they be just as excited about the 1 extra draft pick they would get next year?? Did they save ~13 million last year??

 

[thewupk]

quantify amounts to anything?? has Jace amounted to enough to call it even?? Padres finished well out of the playoffs.. so they are going to win the trade if Mallex, Fried, or Dustin don't pan out to be stars?? Are fans and FO excited about these players?? would they be excited about this team last season with Jup on the team? would they be just as excited about the 1 extra draft pick they would get next year?? Did they save ~13 million last year??

For one year of Justin Upton you should expect to get atleast 1 MLB starter. If nobody from that trade pans out to become that then I would consider that trade a bust. Otherwise you can rationalize as no trade ever being bad. We aren't going to contend for the next few years, sure we have this guy under contract but it doesn't matter as our team isn't that good, let's trade him, doesn't matter what we get back as having him on the team wouldn't make much of a difference anyways. Trades results are determined by value and production. We had a valuable asset in Upton. If we get nothing of value in return then it's a bad trade.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

For one year of Justin Upton you should expect to get atleast 1 MLB starter. If nobody from that trade pans out to become that then I would consider that trade a bust. Otherwise you can rationalize as no trade ever being bad. We aren't going to contend for the next few years, sure we have this guy under contract but it doesn't matter as our team isn't that good, let's trade him, doesn't matter what we get back as having him on the team wouldn't make much of a difference anyways. Trades results are determined by value and production. We had a valuable asset in Upton. If we get nothing of value in return then it's a bad trade.

I know what you are saying.. I just don't see that as black and white. The prospects we got have very high value. if they turn out to be a bust, it is on them not the GM for making that trade. I think the two center pieces to the trade were Mallex and Fried.. Dustin and Jace where more of a gamble type pickups. I like the fact we traded away a guy who wouldn't have helped us win anything nor did he help his current team to win anything. Now the Padres are left hoping the draft pick they get for Jup pans out. We as Braves fans as well as the Front office have two - four players we can be excited about for the next three + years. I feel that is a win regardless. Like I said, I may look at things differently.. maybe even biased.. but I personally don't need to see how prospects pan out to determine a trade a win

 

[thewupk]

I know what you are saying.. I just don't see that as black and white. The prospects we got have very high value. if they turn out to be a bust, it is on them not the GM for making that trade. I think the two center pieces to the trade were Mallex and Fried.. Dustin and Jace where more of a gamble type pickups. I like the fact we traded away a guy who wouldn't have helped us win anything nor did he help his current team to win anything. Now the Padres are left hoping the draft pick they get for Jup pans out. We as Braves fans as well as the Front office have two - four players we can be excited about for the next three + years. I feel that is a win regardless. Like I said, I may look at things differently.. maybe even biased.. but I personally don't need to see how prospects pan out to determine a trade a win

I get what you are saying. But most of the FO criticism in most of these trades is going after quantity instead of quality. Now if a prospect busts that is on them as you can't really predict that. But you can take issue with who the Braves went after in these trades.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

I get what you are saying. But most of the FO criticism in most of these trades is going after quantity instead of quality. Now if a prospect busts that is on them as you can't really predict that. But you can take issue with who the Braves went after in these trades.

yes, but we will never know who was offered or who Hart and Co. asked for. There are a ton more prospects that I would love to have.. just not sure they were available to us.. so I just have to take what I see at face value and go with it. But, I agree, the Johns went for quantity mixed with quality. however, when your farm system is wreaked like it was, I don't fault them for that.