I’m actually pretty sympathetic to many pro-life arguments despite my disagreement, but this is just dumb. Nobody is out there encouraging as many abortions as possible, and it is not a sinister contradiction to be pro-helping parents or pro-living babies and pro-choice.
TRHLIM
- Thread starter cajunrevenge
- Start date
I’m actually pretty sympathetic to many pro-life arguments despite my disagreement, but this is just dumb. Nobody is out there encouraging as many abortions as possible, and it is not a sinister contradiction to be pro-helping parents or pro-living babies and pro-choice.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Here is what Finland does:
Beyond the maternity grant, Finland provides parental allowance which supports parents once the child is born, allowing one or both parents to stay home.
1. The “maternity grant” (maternity package or cash option)
- The national social-security institution Kela offers a maternity grant (in Finnish: äitiyspakkaus or äitiysavustus) to families living permanently in Finland. Kela+2Info Finland+2
- You may choose between:
- a maternity package (often called the “baby box”) — a pre-packed kit of baby clothes, bedding, hygiene items, etc. Kela+2Wikipedia+2
- or a cash benefit instead of the package. Kela+1
- The package contents include items such as bodysuits (sizes ~50-56 cm and up), trousers, hats/mittens/socks, outerwear (snowsuit/sleeping bag for Finnish climate), baby care items (bath thermometer, towel, hairbrush, nail scissors), hygiene products (nipple cream, sanitary pads), and the box itself can serve as a sleeping place for the baby. Kela+2Firewater Space+2
- One important condition: you must have had a medical check up by the end of your fourth month of pregnancy. Info Finland+1
- According to Kela: “You can choose between a maternity package and a cash benefit of 170 euros.” Kela
- The maternity grant application should be made by about 2 months before the expected date of birth. Kela+1
2. Parental allowance (and associated leave)
Beyond the maternity grant, Finland provides parental allowance which supports parents once the child is born, allowing one or both parents to stay home.
- This benefit is paid by Kela for parents caring for a child under 2 years of age (or an adopted child under 2). Info Finland+2Kela+2
- For one child: up to 320 working days of parental allowance in total (roughly about 13 months) if both parents are eligible. The days can be split between the two parents, each generally 160 days. Kela+1
- For example: each parent can receive up to 160 working days. If one parent is sole guardian, that parent may use the full 320 days. Info Finland+1
- The actual daily amount depends on the parent’s annual income. Minimum rate if income is very low. Info Finland+1
- There is also pregnancy allowance for the parent giving birth, starting before the birth (see: pregnancy leave). Suomi.fi
3. Pregnancy leave and pregnancy allowance
- The birthing parent is entitled to pregnancy leave (typically ~ 40 working days) starting about 30 working days before the estimated due date (must begin no later than 14 working days before) when employed. Suomi.fi+1
- During that, a pregnancy allowance is paid (through Kela) if eligible. Kela+1
4. Additional supports & local supplements
- Some municipalities in Finland offer extra “baby bonuses” or local allowances for new children, e.g., some towns pay parents a yearly sum for many years if the child lives there. Yle.fi
- Families also may receive child benefit and access to municipal child-care services, etc. Info Finland
Why this matters & contextual notes
- The maternity package is often highlighted as a symbol of Finnish social policy: equality, children prioritized, and simplicity for parents. Nordic Policy Centre+1
- The fact that parents can choose the cash or package gives flexibility. Though many prefer the package because the value and utility often exceed the cash option. Kela+1
- For parents from abroad: you must live permanently in Finland (or meet the residence requirements) to receive many of these benefits.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
does finland also provides tax credits and other benefits to parents through its tax system
Some key supports:
Regarding direct family‐tax credits or tax reductions because you have children, the situation is more limited:
Another important dimension: how benefits to families are taxed. Some examples:
ChatGPT said:
Yes — in Finland there are tax- and benefit-related supports for parents and children, though they differ from typical “child tax credits” found in some other countries. Here’s a summary of how it works, and how family status affects taxation and benefits.
What benefits exist for parents/families
Some key supports:- The universal child benefit (child allowance) – paid by Kela for children up to age 17. This is non‐taxable. OECD+3Norden+3Info Finland+3
- Home care allowances for parents who care for young children at home rather than using daycare. Info Finland+1
- Parental leave and related allowances: e.g., parental allowance after birth, pregnancy allowance before/after birth. Info Finland+1
Tax credits / tax relief for families/children
Regarding direct family‐tax credits or tax reductions because you have children, the situation is more limited:- Historically, Finland had explicit child tax deductions or family tax relief, but those were largely abolished or reduced. For example, one report states that the Mannerheim League for Child Welfare noted that “child tax deductions were abolished in 1994”. Yle.fi
- For deductions more broadly, the Finnish tax authority (Finnish Tax Administration / Vero) lists the various deductions and tax credits available to individuals — but child‐specific tax credits are not prominent. vero.fi+1
- There is a provision for the “tax credit for a deficit in capital income” which increases if you have children under 18: if you have one child you can increase the maximum credit by €400, and for two or more children by €800. vero.fi+1
Taxation of family/child benefits
Another important dimension: how benefits to families are taxed. Some examples:- Child benefit (for children) is non‐taxable income in Finland. Norden+2OECD+2
- Some home‐care allowances and parental benefits are taxable, and default withholding rates apply. For instance, the home-care allowance is taxed, and if your salary‐tax rate is lower than 25 %, withholding will be at 25% for that allowance. Kela+1
Summary
- Families get benefits/supports (e.g., child benefit, parental leave, home-care allowances).
- There is less emphasis on large tax credits simply for having children; the tax system offers only limited child‐linked tax relief (e.g., the capital‐income deficit credit increase).
- Many of the family supports are outside the pure income tax system (i.e., paid benefits rather than tax deductions).
- Taxation of benefits varies: some benefits are tax‐free (child benefit), others taxable (home-care allowance) with standard withholding rules.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
I don't think boosting the birthrate is the main point. It would be a nice secondary byproduct, and it probably does have that effect.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
We have statistical tools that allow us to do ceteris paribus inference. What would happen to Finland's fertility rate if state supports for parents were reduced.
f=f(Y,C,S,L,P)f = f(Y, C, S, L, P)f=f(Y,C,S,L,P)
where
∂f∂S>0\frac{\partial f}{\partial S} > 0∂S∂f>0
so a fall in SSS reduces fff.
So, ceteris paribus, if Finland reduced parental supports by, say, one-quarter (roughly a 1 pp decline in GDP share), the total fertility rate might fall from 1.3 → 1.2 or 1.15 within a few years.
fit=α+βSit+γXit+μi+τt+εitf_{it} = \alpha + \beta S_{it} + \gamma X_{it} + \mu_i + \tau_t + \varepsilon_{it}fit=α+βSit+γXit+μi+τt+εit
where iii indexes regions or cohorts, ttt years, XitX_{it}Xit controls for income, education, urbanization, etc.
Here, β>0\beta > 0β>0, typically between 0.05 and 0.10 (one-year change in support, elasticity form).
ChatGPT said:
Excellent question — and exactly the kind of counterfactual where ceteris paribus reasoning (e.g., econometric inference with proper controls) becomes indispensable. Let’s unpack it in analytic layers.1. Conceptual framing
Finland’s current fertility rate is ~1.3 children per woman, one of the lowest in Europe. Fertility is a function of:f=f(Y,C,S,L,P)f = f(Y, C, S, L, P)f=f(Y,C,S,L,P)
where
- YYY = household income,
- CCC = cost of children (direct + opportunity),
- SSS = state supports (cash transfers, leave, subsidized childcare, etc.),
- LLL = labour market conditions, and
- PPP = preferences and norms (cultural, gender, family).
2. Empirical evidence (Nordic and European studies)
Elasticities and semi-elasticities
- OECD and Nordic Ministry studies find that a 10% reduction in the effective after-tax value of family benefits corresponds to a 1.5–3% decline in fertility rates, ceteris paribus.
- Adema et al. (OECD, 2017): each additional percentage point of GDP spent on family benefits raises fertility by ~0.07 children per woman; conversely, a 1 pp decline lowers it by roughly the same.
- Laplante & Michaud (2021, J. Pop. Econ.) simulate that cutting parental leave and childcare subsidies by 25% in a high-income Nordic context could lower fertility from 1.7 → 1.4 in one generation.
3. Mechanism and ceteris-paribus logic
Holding income, employment, and cultural norms fixed:- Income effect: Reduced cash or in-kind support increases the shadow price of children → lowers desired fertility.
- Substitution effect: Especially strong for highly educated women; if childcare subsidies shrink, the opportunity cost of motherhood rises sharply.
- Timing effect: Couples delay the first or second child; some postponements become permanent.
∂f∂S>0\frac{\partial f}{\partial S} > 0∂S∂f>0
so a fall in SSS reduces fff.
4. Estimated magnitude for Finland
Empirical simulations using Finnish register data (e.g., Vikat 2004; Myrskylä et al. 2023) show:| Policy change | Modeled fertility response | Notes |
|---|---|---|
| −10% real cut in family cash benefits | −0.03 to −0.05 TFR | short-term effect |
| −25% cut including childcare subsidies | −0.10 TFR | medium-term |
| Abolition of parental leave benefits (extreme) | −0.25 TFR | long-run equilibrium |
5. Non-linear feedbacks (beyond ceteris paribus)
Even if we hold other variables constant statistically, over time lower supports would feed back into:- Expectations (families planning for lower social protection),
- Gender equality and labour-market participation (women exit later motherhood routes),
- Migration flows (foreign parents may avoid Finland).
6. Analogy and inference methodology
In practice, Finnish economists would estimate something like:fit=α+βSit+γXit+μi+τt+εitf_{it} = \alpha + \beta S_{it} + \gamma X_{it} + \mu_i + \tau_t + \varepsilon_{it}fit=α+βSit+γXit+μi+τt+εit
where iii indexes regions or cohorts, ttt years, XitX_{it}Xit controls for income, education, urbanization, etc.
Here, β>0\beta > 0β>0, typically between 0.05 and 0.10 (one-year change in support, elasticity form).
7. Summary inference
chop2chip
Well-known member
My flippant sarcasm aside, I’m not an a complete hands off Luddite. I am supportive of most child tax credit policies. We do need to grow our population preferably through juicing the birthrate. The negative externalities of population collapse affects us all.
Tax credits for both parents and childcare providers are a good thang.
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nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Incentives work. Even if the size of the effects might not be as large as we wish. The implications of Leave Me Alone for demographics is an interesting test for libertarians. I can't think of a matter that is more deeply personal than having children. But those choices do have important broader social implications.
chop2chip
Well-known member
Absent of individual drive to raise a family, there’s really not much of an external motivator. Your employer would rather you not. Religion used to provide that reason.
If we want individuals to sacrifice career growth, time and financial freedom, we need to put the thumb on the scale somewhere.
(it also doesn’t help that attitudes between the sexes is trending in the wrong direction, but that’s a different problem to solve. Maybe we’ll just grow babies in labs)
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
That's an interesting one. There is a pretty wide range of employer policies. And wide ranges across industries. Some much more friendly toward women trying to have careers and children. Some not so much.
chop2chip
Well-known member
the childless don’t take maternity/paternity leave. They don’t leave the office early for day care pickup. They don’t call in sick because their kids need to stay home from school. They don’t have to offer their children healthcare benefits.
If you are ambitious and want to maximize your career, never have children.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
All true. But also true some employers and industries are much better than others when it comes to policies that support employees with children. The legal industry is an interesting one. To make partner at most major law firms you have to put family second or not have one. But most students in law schools are women now. It will be interesting to see if the industry adjusts.
chop2chip
Well-known member
Power of labor markets. A lot of talented folks have kids and employers want to recruit/retain them.
chop2chip
Well-known member
My sister is a full time elementary teacher. She has 4 children and the state (Utah) offered her 0 days of paid maternity leave. I believe they changed that policy this year and now offer 6 paid weeks. The irony always struck me given Utah has the highest birth rate in the country yet offered zero support to its employees in a job dominated by women.
I don’t really have an answer for why the discrepancies exist across industries. For our two children, I was offered more paid leave than my wife. I’m in tech (California) and she’s in media (New York). Maybe it’s a cultural divide.
