Uhhhhh.... what??

Well if it helps the state of Kansas and their truly bat-****e governor Sam Brownback are working towards something similar at the state level to get anyone who disapproves of their far right DUMAS agenda, especially those in the Kansas legislature and judiciary.

I totally agree with those here who say punishing in any way those who dissent or disagree is about as wrong as a democracy can get, and while I think those who totally deny that climate change is taking place are wrong (not talking cause here just the presence of effects) you just don't prosecute or otherwise punish people for having a different opinion than yours.
 
I mean... I could make a really really really long and productive argument that says most of the people in authority are hurting most of the citizens... The education system for starters...

Should we prosecute those people? Or better yet, let's prosecute the voters for putting them there!

If Bernie were elected President and was allowed to bankrupt the country into Venezuela, I'd hope we could prosecute him too.

I do think teachers that teach creation next to evolutionary science should be jailed. Or at least drawn and quartered
 
I don't get to agree or disagree with the data and facts.
I accept the conclusions of the scientific method that produce the facts and data

The earth is no longer believed flat, it is no longer questioned whether the sun rotates around the earth , ater is not some mysterious concoction and the story of creation is just that. A story
To my mind it is criminal to confuse children with the two in a science class.

If they want to teach that in Sunday schools where they teach superstition and myth they are free to. But not in tax payer funded public schools.
Where different religions and different beliefs are accepted and tolerated

If I want my children exposed to myths, I will oversee that exposure.
But if I want my children to learn science and the scientific method, I will defer to scientists

....

What is your opinion of Islamic Madras, where they teach orthodox Islam ?
Should their notions be taught along side of scientific data ?
how would the Judeo-Christian notion of creation differ from a Madras contradicting scientific fact ?
 
I don't get to agree or disagree with the data and facts.
I accept the conclusions of the scientific method that produce the facts and data

The earth is no longer believed flat, it is no longer questioned whether the sun rotates around the earth , ater is not some mysterious concoction and the story of creation is just that. A story
To my mind it is criminal to confuse children with the two in a science class.

If they want to teach that in Sunday schools where they teach superstition and myth they are free to. But not in tax payer funded public schools.
Where different religions and different beliefs are accepted and tolerated

If I want my children exposed to myths, I will oversee that exposure.
But if I want my children to learn science and the scientific method, I will defer to scientists

....

What is your opinion of Islamic Madras, where they teach orthodox Islam ?
Should their notions be taught along side of scientific data ?
how would the Judeo-Christian notion of creation differ from a Madras contradicting scientific fact ?

I think education should be decided at the very local level. I know you disagree.

But rather than change the subject again, I'm glad we've established that you support the government prosecuting people based on what they believe. That is worse than anything Donald Trump has ever suggested.

A tolerant bunch, y'all are
 
I think education should be decided at the very local level. I know you disagree.

But rather than change the subject again, I'm glad we've established that you support the government prosecuting people based on what they believe. That is worse than anything Donald Trump has ever suggested.

A tolerant bunch, y'all are

I used to think that a lot more than I do now. I'm certainly not in favor of a "national curriculum" but if you had seen and been forced to go along with the wishes of some of the incredible DUMASs I have seen over the years you might have a different opinion. I've see some good school board members and one really good principal at the HS level. Many of the school board members and most of the school administrators I've worked with and for couldn't have less of a clue if they'd been mainlining crystal meth for 3 weeks straight. And then there's the bunch of holier than thou Texas numbnuts who fairly recently tried to rewrite the history portions of their curriculum, not to make them more accurate but to take out references to anyone who didn't go along with the far right version of history, Jefferson was hardly mentioned, Cesar Chavez was taken out completely, and references to the slavery of Africans and genocide of Native Americans was either taken out or spun to make them "less troubling".

So I don't know what do say about education in this country. What it needs more than anything is a great big dose of common sense and most of that needs to come from people who've been there, in the trenches, but you'll find about as much common sense in our public schools these days as you will in Washington, DC.
 
57, like so many on the Left, has no problem whatsoever with thought and speech police...

Don't forget, one of 57's favorite TV personalities once said that kids shouldn't belong to their families...

In the ad, Harris-Perry calls for "breaking through our kind of private idea that kids belong to their parents." Instead, she says, we should "recognize that kids belong to whole communities."
 
The concept of prosecuting any person or entity because of beliefs, whether the belief is right or wrong, is utterly abhorrent.

Actions, not beliefs are what can be regulated and what can be punished. If a company doesn't believe in climate change you can't punish them for that. If a company violates an environmental regulation because it doesn't believe in climate change, the government can move against them for the action in violation of the regulation but not for the belief.

Think about it this way, if you're in a store and you see something that you can't afford, you want to steal it, and you don't think it would be wrong to steal it, you've not committed a crime. The mere thinking about committing a crime or the belief that the crime isn't morally wrong is not criminal. The government can take no action against you because you believed something. You could write a banner and put on a march advocating that theft is moral and still nothing can be done against you. Not until you take the first step in trying to steal the item can the government do anything.

Thinking something wrong or believing something wrong is not something the government can or should be able to stop. Even if your belief harms others. Suppose you advocating that theft is moral convinces someone to steal. The government still can't punish you for believing what you do and speaking out about your beliefs.

If a company's actions are in violation of the law, it can be punished. Believing that climate change is a myth doesn't give a company the right to disregard environmental regulations. However, a company cannot and should not be punished for advocating against regulations based on their belief that climate change is a myth.
 
The concept of prosecuting any person or entity because of beliefs, whether the belief is right or wrong, is utterly abhorrent.

Actions, not beliefs are what can be regulated and what can be punished. If a company doesn't believe in climate change you can't punish them for that. If a company violates an environmental regulation because it doesn't believe in climate change, the government can move against them for the action in violation of the regulation but not for the belief.

Think about it this way, if you're in a store and you see something that you can't afford, you want to steal it, and you don't think it would be wrong to steal it, you've not committed a crime. The mere thinking about committing a crime or the belief that the crime isn't morally wrong is not criminal. The government can take no action against you because you believed something. You could write a banner and put on a march advocating that theft is moral and still nothing can be done against you. Not until you take the first step in trying to steal the item can the government do anything.

Thinking something wrong or believing something wrong is not something the government can or should be able to stop. Even if your belief harms others. Suppose you advocating that theft is moral convinces someone to steal. The government still can't punish you for believing what you do and speaking out about your beliefs.

If a company's actions are in violation of the law, it can be punished. Believing that climate change is a myth doesn't give a company the right to disregard environmental regulations. However, a company cannot and should not be punished for advocating against regulations based on their belief that climate change is a myth.

with that in mind:
https://www.smokeandfumes.org/#/

Chris D’Angelo
Associate Editor, HuffPost Hawaii 


In 1968, a pair of scientists from Stanford Research Institute wrote a report for the American Petroleum Institute, a trade association for America’s oil and natural gas industry. They warned that “man is now engaged in a vast geophysical experiment with his environment, the earth” — one that “may be the cause of serious world-wide environmental changes.”

The scientists went on: “If the Earth’s temperature increases significantly, a number of events might be expected to occur including the melting of the Antarctic ice cap, a rise in sea levels, warming of the oceans and an increase in photosynthesis.”

That 48-year-old report, which accurately foreshadowed what’s now happening, is among a trove of public documents uncovered and released Wednesday by the Washington-based Center for International Environmental Law. Taken together, documents that the organization has assembled show that oil executives were well aware of the serious climate risks associated with carbon dioxide emissions decades earlier than previously documented — and they covered it up.

Carroll Muffett, the center’s president, told The Huffington Post the documents not only reveal that the industry, including Humble Oil (now Exxon Mobil), was “clearly on notice” about the potential role of fossil fuels in CO2 emissions no later than 1957, but was “shaping science to shape public opinion” even earlier, in the 1940s.

“This story is older and it is bigger than I think has been appreciated before,” Muffett said.

The Center for International Environmental Law, or CIEL, a nonprofit legal organization, said it traced the industry’s coordinated, decades-long cover-up back to a 1946 meeting in Los Angeles by combing through scientific articles, industry histories and other documents.

It was during that meeting that the oil executives decided to form a group — the Smoke and Fumes Committee — to “fund scientific research into smog and other air pollution issues and, significantly, use that research to inform and shape public opinion about environmental issues,” CIEL says on a new website devoted to the documents.

That research, CIEL says, was used to “promote public skepticism of environmental science and environmental regulations the industry considered hasty, costly, and potentially unnecessary.”

Muffett said in a statement that the documents “add to the growing body of evidence that the oil industry worked to actively undermine public confidence in climate science and in the need for climate action even as its own knowledge of climate risks was growing.”

Last year, InsideClimate News revealed that top executives at Exxon knew about the role of fossil fuels in global warming as early as 1977, then lobbied against efforts to cut greenhouse gas emissions. In January, the New York attorney general announced an investigation into ExxonMobil over allegations that it lied to the public and its investors about climate change.

A report that surfaced in February revealed the American Petroleum Institute knew about climate change in the early 1980s.

The industry group did not respond to HuffPost’s requests for comment Wednesday.

CIEL’s new documents, however, show that the cover-up has endured for a generation or more.

Muffett said any document, viewed in isolation, has an element of plausible deniability. “But when you put all of the pieces to the story out there and see how they link, the zone of plausible deniability shrinks, and it shrinks substantially,” he said.

The new trove adds to a “robust body of evidence” available to the public showing what the industry knew, when, and what it did with that information, Muffett said.

“Once the companies learned this information, once they were aware of it, they can’t unlearn it,” he said. “This becomes the baseline.”

Muffett said the evidence warrants further investigation. CIEL plans to release additional documents in the near future.

“Oil companies had an early opportunity to acknowledge climate science and climate risks, and to enable consumers to make informed choices,” Muffett said in a statement. “They chose a different path. The public deserves to know why.”

Attorney Sharon Y. Eubanks, former lead counsel for the Justice Department in federal tobacco litigation, was among those who applauded CIEL for making the documents public.

“Just as was the case with the release through litigation of tobacco industry documents, these documents will shed light on the actions and inactions of a powerful and influential industry,” Eubanks said in a statement.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/oil-cover-up-climate_us_570e98bbe4b0ffa5937df6ce
 
The way I read Strikers description -- yes, to my mind the Justice Department should be having conversations ( a far cry from "government wants to prosecute) as to whether teaching denial of man made climate change is criminal.
 
The way I read Strikers description -- yes, to my mind the Justice Department should be having conversations ( a far cry from "government wants to prosecute) as to whether teaching denial of man made climate change is criminal.

No, the correct answer to speech you consider is incorrect is more speech. The answer is not attempting to shut down your opponent's right to speak. So if whoever is running the government believes that there's an incorrect message out there, the government is free to start its own campaign to try to persuade people.
 
I'm not up to speed with the topic, so I probably shouldn't add my two cents, but I do object the characterization that the issue at hand is prosecution of people for their opinions.

My understanding is that there were conversations within the justice department about the possibility of prosecuting oil companies if they misled their investors and the public about the potential health risks of their products, as the tobacco industry did.

I'd be surprised if those conversations didn't take place. It seems like a legitimate area of public interest.
 
No, the correct answer to speech you consider is incorrect is more speech. The answer is not attempting to shut down your opponent's right to speak. So if whoever is running the government believes that there's an incorrect message out there, the government is free to start its own campaign to try to persuade people.

Even if that speech is demonstrably false? At what point does misleading the public for financial gain go from an off base opinion (we agree on prosecuting oponion) to

criminal behavior ?
 
Even if that speech is demonstrably false? At what point does misleading the public for financial gain go from an off base opinion (we agree on prosecuting oponion) to
criminal behavior ?

You're talking about a very, very narrow area here. It pretty much has to reach the level of false advertising. To rise to that it has to be either an attempt to defraud or something that is harmful. So you're talking about snake oil salesmen saying the bottle of stump water they have will cure baldness. Or advertising something as safe that you know is likely to harm the person buying it. And we're not talking about some nebulous eventual harm. We're talking about a direct injury.

Trying to prosecute a company for advocating a position that isn't factually sound is not at all acceptable. Just the fact that the government thought about trying it is scary.
 
You're talking about a very, very narrow area here. It pretty much has to reach the level of false advertising. To rise to that it has to be either an attempt to defraud or something that is harmful. So you're talking about snake oil salesmen saying the bottle of stump water they have will cure baldness. Or advertising something as safe that you know is likely to harm the person buying it. And we're not talking about some nebulous eventual harm. We're talking about a direct injury.

Trying to prosecute a company for advocating a position that isn't factually sound is not at all acceptable. Just the fact that the government thought about trying it is scary.

57, must be in favor of the people behind Airborne and vitamin companies going to jail.
 
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