Viz and Teheran listed as top trade candidates

Preacher said:
Exactly! Tehrean isn't Jose Fernandez or Chris Sale, we probably aren't going to get the #1 prospect in baseball for him.

Doesn't mean we can't get a great package centered around a guy like Benintendi.
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Yet Teheran was ranked about as high as Jose Fernandez (5 vs. 3 respectively), and Sale was ranked the #20 prospect in the league. And you're counting on prospects to be that ace. People are forgetting what a rare prospect Teheran was and even he hasn't completely lived up to his ceiling. Although many of you are vastly underrating what he is.
 
CJ9 said:
The other side of this argument is the offense. If we keep Teheran and Freeman, how do we fix the offense without signing 30+ year olds from a bad free agent class? We've ignored bats in the trade market to load up on arms. How else do we get bats?
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There should be plenty of good bats available in this year's free agency. Desmond, Bautista, Cespedes are the headliners, with a good second tier group of Gomez, Turner, Freese, Prado, Ramos, Wieters, Walker, and Saunders, all at positions we have immediate needs at (except for Walker). If the choice is (1.) trade JT for a less than stellar return or , (2.) signing one or two of the players above, then I'm choosing option 2.

If you guys are coneeding the 2017 season anyways, then there is no use trading JT for a less than stellar return. Just keep JT and sign a couple of hitters from the legendary 2018 FA class.
 
zbhargrove said:
And you're counting on prospects to be that ace.
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As I said in my previous post, if we can't get that from all the pitching prospects we've been drafting and trading for, it doesn't really matter what we do with Julio. We are going to suck for a long time in that scenario and Niners will actually wind up being right, with us having a new front office in a few years. I'm not a blind follower of the front office like some of here, but I've been mostly pleased with what they've done outside of 3-4 exceptions. I choose to believe they can actually identify pitching talent reasonably well and we'll actually have some payoff from all this talent. Otherwise yeah, we're screwed.
 
auyushu said:
As I said in my previous post, if we can't get that from all the pitching prospects we've been drafting and trading for, it doesn't really matter what we do with Julio. We are going to suck for a long time in that scenario and Niners will actually wind up being right, with us having a new front office in a few years. I'm not a blind follower of the front office like some of here, but I've been mostly pleased with what they've done outside of 3-4 exceptions. I choose to believe they can actually identify pitching talent reasonably well and we'll actually have some payoff from all this talent. Otherwise yeah, we're screwed.
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Very few prospects turn into "Aces." If that is your expectation, then you are likely to be disappointed. It is pretty likely, however, that more than a couple of the pitchers we've acquired become high quality major league starters.
 
Carp said:
It is pretty likely, however, that more than a couple of the pitchers we've acquired become high quality major league starters.
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I'm talking about being our "Ace" and replacing Julio here. I'm not expecting Kershaw or Fernandez. Julio isn't an Ace either, but he's a solid high end #2 or low end #1 depending on the season. I think we should be able to get a decent low end #1, a solid #2, and a low end #2/high end #3 from all the talent we've gotten, and I think that's a reasonable expectation. We've completely sold out for pitching in all of our trades and drafts recently, if can't get that from all this talent something is severely wrong.
 
auyushu said:
As I said in my previous post, if we can't get that from all the pitching prospects we've been drafting and trading for, it doesn't really matter what we do with Julio. We are going to suck for a long time in that scenario and Niners will actually wind up being right, with us having a new front office in a few years. I'm not a blind follower of the front office like some of here, but I've been mostly pleased with what they've done outside of 3-4 exceptions. I choose to believe they can actually identify pitching talent reasonably well and we'll actually have some payoff from all this talent. Otherwise yeah, we're screwed.
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You nailed it. If our prospects amount to nothing, we're going to suck regardless of what we do with Teheran. If our FO believes we have the kind of talent that will lead to us having a very good pitching staff in the future, then it's a good idea to trade Teheran.....IF we get good value in return.
 
Carp said:
If the choice is (1.) trade JT for a less than stellar return or , (2.) signing one or two of the players above, then I'm choosing option 2.
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We are talking about trading Julio for packages centered around Benintendi or Bregman, both top 20 offensive prospects that would fill huge needs on our team and are performing very well at AA or higher. That's not a less than stellar return.
 
smootness said:
If our FO believes we have the kind of talent that will lead to us having a very good pitching staff in the future, then it's a good idea to trade Teheran.....IF we get good value in return.
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Yep, if we can get a solid piece that will help us offensively for a while and some other talent go for it. Otherwise the value lies more in keeping Julio. A guy like Benintendi would be perfect. People would be all about Starling Marte if we had him, and Benintendi has a good chance to be Marte with a much better walk rate offensively (and Benintendi has plus grades defensively as well, so overall value could be the same).

It makes me chuckle that it seems to be the ones that pump sunshine about the FO the most that want to hang on to Julio the hardest. The FO either knows what they are doing finding and developing pitching talent and Julio is replaceable, or they don't and our current ugly run is going to continue 80s style. I'd rather not live through a string of Braves baseball like the 80s again, so I choose to believe the former.
 
auyushu said:
Yep, if we can get a solid piece that will help us offensively for a while and some other talent go for it. Otherwise the value lies more in keeping Julio. A guy like Benintendi would be perfect. People would be all about Starling Marte if we had him, and Benintendi has a good chance to be Marte with a much better walk rate offensively (and Benintendi has plus grades defensively as well, so overall value could be the same).

It makes me chuckle that it seems to be the ones that pump sunshine about the FO the most that want to hang on to Julio the hardest. The FO either knows what they are doing finding and developing pitching talent and Julio is replaceable, or they don't and our current ugly run is going to continue 80s style. I'd rather not live through a string of Braves baseball like the 80s again, so I choose to believe the former.
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We love to argue on the extremes here. I have seen literally no one here who wants to hang on to JT regardless of the potential return. The only argument is do you hold out for a really big haul, or trade him in a deal that is more of a fair value for value. If you get a haul, then yes, trade him.... If it is value for value, then many here see his value as just as high for the Braves as it is as a trade piece.
 
mfree80 said:
We love to argue on the extremes here. I have seen literally no one here who wants to hang on to JT regardless of the potential return.
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You have multiple people in this same thread saying if the Red Sox won't trade Moncada then no deal, if only the #1 prospect in baseball is good enough then you aren't just hoping for a good haul. And not sure how anything you said goes against what you bolded in my statement anyway. There is nothing extreme about what I said, the biggest sunshine pumpers are the ones who want to trade Julio the least. Which is rather counterintuitive really, you would think they would have the most confidence in us building a good staff.
 
auyushu said:
You have multiple people in this same thread saying if the Red Sox won't trade Moncada then no deal, if only the #1 prospect in baseball is good enough then you aren't just hoping for a good haul. And not sure how anything you said goes against what you bolded in my statement anyway. There is nothing extreme about what I said, the biggest sunshine pumpers are the ones who want to trade Julio the least. Which is rather counterintuitive really, you would think they would have the most confidence in us building a good staff.
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That's not what I'm interring... I'm saying if we're going to trade him by the deadline then hold out of something like Moncada... if we can't get him (which it sounds like the Red Sox are at least thinking about the most remote of possibilities of trading either him or Benitendi... so stop acting like its impossible), then what's the hurry... why can't we just wait until the off season? Why trade him just to trade him? He's the most valuable starter on the market.
 
Correct. And Texas wouldn't deal Profar straight up for him. The overrating of Teheran's value here continues.
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if $80 -$100 million in excess value through 2020 is "overrating" then what would you accept as true value??? $80m in excess value is a top 5 prospect in all of baseball type of value and if we require and overpay it will take that plus another piece. So asking for Moncada is NOT "overrating JT" it's asking for even value.

heck, according to baseball reference Teheran is the 4th most valuable starter in all of MLB this year.
 
auyushu said:
You have multiple people in this same thread saying if the Red Sox won't trade Moncada then no deal, if only the #1 prospect in baseball is good enough then you aren't just hoping for a good haul. And not sure how anything you said goes against what you bolded in my statement anyway. There is nothing extreme about what I said, the biggest sunshine pumpers are the ones who want to trade Julio the least. Which is rather counterintuitive really, you would think they would have the most confidence in us building a good staff.
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I want to keep JT. I don't really care if you see that as sunshine pumping. The deal should lean towards the braves because Boston or whomever need him. Maybe some of us are overvaluing him, but so what. The tired argument of Teheran is not worthy of whatever prospect is your opinion.
 
bravos4evr said:
if $80 -$100 million in excess value through 2020 is "overrating" then what would you accept as true value??? $80m in excess value is a top 5 prospect in all of baseball type of value and if we require and overpay it will take that plus another piece. So asking for Moncada is NOT "overrating JT" it's asking for even value.

heck, according to baseball reference Teheran is the 4th most valuable starter in all of MLB this year.
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If you think getting Moncada for Teheran is equal value, then I'm really not sure what to even tell you.
 
CJ9 said:
If you think getting Moncada for Teheran is equal value, then I'm really not sure what to even tell you.
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Nothing. Teheran has been successful as an mlb starter. Moncada is still a prospect. A great one but still. It's pretty simple, get a top position player or keep him. Doesn't matter.
 
auyushu said:
If you're requirement for making any deal if getting the number one prospect in baseball back, you probably aren't going to be making many deals.
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Its not a requirement but its not like we MUST trade Julio.

Benitendi is a good player but hes not the centerpiece i'd trade Julio for.

Worst case, can keep him and set up a bidding war next winter.
 
CJ9 said:
Correct. And Texas wouldn't deal Profar straight up for him. The overrating of Teheran's value here continues.
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It's not really overrating his value.

Here's his contract cap hits the next 4.5 years.

3.3 this year, 6.3 mil in 17, 8 mil in 18, 11 mil in 19, and a 12 mil option in 2020.

He essentially has an 8 million cap hit the next 4.5 years, you arent signing a frontline starter for 8 mil in todays baseball.

Which is why i can understand Coppy holding out for a big return. Not like WE MUST TRADE HIM.

Julio has one of the most team friendly deals in all of baseball, its not like keeping him is death knell.
 
For me the question is how do we get better and stay better.

I think it's not unreasonable to think some of wisler folty Blair to improve. I think it's likely we can get good 4-5 out of Jenkins Ellis man ban Perez wheeler gant etc etc

We still have guys that are close who could pick up for Tehran in Newcombe and sims. In a couple of years you might have sorka allard fried touki Miller etc

I think it's more likely we can replace tehrans value than we can get impact bats.

I'm still not dealing him this yr or next without an overpay. When he has two years left on the deal I'd consider it bc we'd know much more about the sorka fried etc group.

I'd need a minimum of 1 plus bat who has 3 plus yrs of control as the centerpiece. Got to be a player who we think can play in mlb this yr. then you'd have to add on. But toy have to get that impact guy. Bentendi seems to be a consensus plus bat who ppl think could play now. That plus has me interested bc I don't know where else we get him. I don't think we will lose a pick for Desmond or cespedes.

I've been saying all along that I don't think a Tehran trade gets done. Six don't want to give up top 3 bats for him.
I think it has to go blockbuster like Tehran viz Olivera for bentindi devers panda turner. Or maybe even a 3 way deal wher a team like the pads will take farther away players.
 
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