Viz and Teheran listed as top trade candidates

If Peterson continues to hit, then it makes it all a moot point. I don't think that should be overlooked. He's looked damn good lately.
 
Man, Kimbrel to the DL for 3-6 weeks. Maybe Viz and Teheran are looking even better. It's a long time, but he now becomes a legit liability and they need to make moves quickly
 
took me a second to realize which Peterson u were referring to...both are doing well
Carp said:
If Peterson continues to hit, then it makes it all a moot point. I don't think that should be overlooked. He's looked damn good lately.
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nsacpi said:
I haven't looked at this in detail but I suspect that winning matters for attendance even at the tails. I suspect 70 wins draws better than 60. 75 better than 70, etc. So there is a financial consideration that argues for improving the product (and I realize these considerations are complicated by the new ballpark), as long as you are smart about it and don't hand out contracts that impinge on your flexibility down the road.
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Yes, winning does help attendance and so does marketability. I know at least two women in my office who went to see games this year to see Frenchy. They asked me which games he's likeliest to start. That seems silly to us, but it's the entertainment industry. This is a reason I think Prado may be brought back as well.

We also have to be smart about it. One thing I'd do is approach Cespedes and offer him a 5 year deal with 2-3 years front loaded with an opt out. Carlos Gomez and and Matt Wieters are guys I''d look to offer front loaded opt out contracts or smaller guaranteed money contracts to in hopes their stock goes back up. You can benefit off of their good years only or have an asset to flip.

I'd try and stay away from guys like Desmond, Ramos, Saunders, and Trumbo for the fear you're getting fool's gold. Although there is a chance Desmond is legit even with the high BABIP. Sometimes people just need to grow up and being humbled is a good way.

The player I like the most as far as getting fair value with production is Josh Reddick.
 
Also, for those saying you can't go from the cellar to playoff contender in one offseason, look no further than the recent success of the Royals and Astros as proof.

After finishing tied for the 4th worst record in baseball in 2014, the Stros brought in Rasmus, Kazmir, and Gattis in the offseason and made an in-season trade for Gomez on their way to a playoff appearance.

The Royals, granted, didn't add any signicant offensive pieces in the offseason prior to 2013. But they did add Shields and Santana to the rotation and they combined for 7 WAR that season. They finished, I believe, 2 games back of the 2nd wild card and of course back to back WS appearances the next 2 years.

The point is, a few shrewd offseason acquisitions combined with your own home grown talent can indeed transform your team into a playoff contender.
 
Carp said:
Also, for those saying you can't go from the cellar to playoff contender in one offseason, look no further than the recent success of the Royals and Astros as proof.

After finishing tied for the 4th worst record in baseball in 2014, the Stros brought in Rasmus, Kazmir, and Gattis in the offseason and made an in-season trade for Gomez on their way to a playoff appearance.

The Royals, granted, didn't add any significant offensive pieces in the offseason prior to 2013. But they did add Shields and Santana to the rotation and they combined for 7 WAR that season. They finished, I believe, 2 games back of the 2nd wild card and of course back to back WS appearances the next 2 years.

The point is, a few shrewd offseason acquisitions combined with your own home grown talent can indeed transform your team into a playoff contender.
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Agreed. Also the 91 Braves with the additions of Belliard, Bream, and Pendleton. We had Gant and Justice. Maybe we should have waited a few years and waited on Javy, Klesko, and Chipper.

A team is never going to be full of twenty somethings. You build a farm system with depth to allow the natural attrition to feed your competitive team at the major league level.
 
Chico said:
Agreed. Also the 91 Braves with the additions of Belliard, Bream, and Pendleton. We had Gant and Justice. Maybe we should have waited a few years and waited on Javy, Klesko, and Chipper.

A team is never going to be full of twenty somethings. You build a farm system with depth to allow the natural attrition to feed your competitive team at the major league level.
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The 91 Braves HAD Javy, Klesko and Chipper in the minors with Blauser (25 years old), Lemke (25), Gant (26) , Justice (25), Hunter (23), Mitchell (21), Franky Cabrera (24), Deion (23), Treadway (28), Vinny Castilla (23), Glavine (25), Avery (21), Smoltz (24), Pete Smith (25), Merker (23), Armando Reynoso (25), Mike Stanton (24), Marvin Freeman (28), Wohlers (21), all appearing at the ML level in 1991. Gant and Justice supplied the majority of the power along with MVP Pendelton (22HR-huge bounce back year no one saw coming) on a team that hit 141 team HR and finished 3rd in the NL in power.

In 1992 the Braves added appearances from Mel Nieves (20), Javy Lopez (21) and Klesko (21) plus David Nied (23), Randy St. Claire (31), Ben Rivera (24) and Pedro Borbon (24).

In 1993, they SIGNED Greg Maddux and traded for Fred McGriff (OF Vince Moore, P Donnie Elliott, OF Mel Nieves) and saw the debut of CJ (21), Tarasco (22), Greg McMichael (26).

Now obviously, not all of the guys who came up through the Braves system panned out. Some had great careers (Gant, Justice, CJ, Lopez, Glavine, Smoltz, etc), some very good (Klesko, Avery, Blauser, Lemke, Castilla, Merker, Wohlers, etc.) and some had significant plays or play that helped the Braves (Hunter, Cabrera) some were cut short due to injury (Pete Smith, Stanton, Nied, etc.)

The point is, the Braves didn't sign Pendelton, Bream, Belliard, Liebrant when the majority of the Braves young help was 3-4 years away. They signed them when they thought the help was 1-2 years away. In a way, they were surprised it all came together in 1991, as the thought at the time was that it would likely be 1992 before things gelled. But once the team did gel, the farm wasn't bare. There was still a huge crop of hitting and some excellent pitching that was close and the Braves used it to replace expensive veterans (for the day) and to trade for necessary pieces (McGriff). When Maddux became available, the Braves weren't saddled with a lot of dead salary that prevented it (Even with Ted running the team, the Braves tended to be cost conscious to an extent).

Now, the Braves did in fact try to jump the gun back then by signing Nick Esasky as a FA. Esasky developed Lyme Disease and never played meaningful minutes for the Braves. The Braves also held on to Dale Murphy long, LONG past his best trade value and had to virtually give him away (sending Tommy Greene as part of the package which hurt worse than getting nothing for Murphy). I guess the 5,000 souls a night showing up to see Skip Carey explain the infield fly rule were there because Murphy was going to play...

The current Braves, while they have done much in effort to rebuild, are no where near in the position of those early 90's teams because they don't have hitting depth in the minors, especially power potential. They need to continue the rebuild, hopefully one more year will do it, and THEN spend some cash to fill the holes.
 
They won't do that though. They will buy at least 2 major pieces this offseason because they worry about the casual fanbase who don't understand rebuilds. They may not grab Cespedes or Desmond, but they WILL sign a catcher and I bet a 3b as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see a veteran pitcher added nor a trade for a power hitting corner OF bat.

They can do these things, post 75-80 wins next year AND still have plenty of space for any future additions. It's not like having too much talent suddenly becomes a problem, there is ALWAYS a spot that needs improving and if you have too much talent in one area you can generally find a spot for it on another team or internally.
 
UNCBlue012 said:
Man, Kimbrel to the DL for 3-6 weeks. Maybe Viz and Teheran are looking even better. It's a long time, but he now becomes a legit liability and they need to make moves quickly
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Heard it was a knee with Kimbrel. That's a relief. Still would like the guy to enjoy a Hall of Fame career.
 
Outstanding, thoughtful post by Harry. One detail to correct for the sake of accuracy: Francisco Cabrera was not a farm system development. He was part of the Toronto system until he was almost ready for the big leagues.

Also, a full accounting of the Dale Murphy trade/non-trade is in my series of darkest days in Braves history.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
The 91 Braves HAD Javy, Klesko and Chipper in the minors with Blauser (25 years old), Lemke (25), Gant (26) , Justice (25), Hunter (23), Mitchell (21), Franky Cabrera (24), Deion (23), Treadway (28), Vinny Castilla (23), Glavine (25), Avery (21), Smoltz (24), Pete Smith (25), Merker (23), Armando Reynoso (25), Mike Stanton (24), Marvin Freeman (28), Wohlers (21), all appearing at the ML level in 1991. Gant and Justice supplied the majority of the power along with MVP Pendelton (22HR-huge bounce back year no one saw coming) on a team that hit 141 team HR and finished 3rd in the NL in power.

In 1992 the Braves added appearances from Mel Nieves (20), Javy Lopez (21) and Klesko (21) plus David Nied (23), Randy St. Claire (31), Ben Rivera (24) and Pedro Borbon (24).

In 1993, they SIGNED Greg Maddux and traded for Fred McGriff (OF Vince Moore, P Donnie Elliott, OF Mel Nieves) and saw the debut of CJ (21), Tarasco (22), Greg McMichael (26).

Now obviously, not all of the guys who came up through the Braves system panned out. Some had great careers (Gant, Justice, CJ, Lopez, Glavine, Smoltz, etc), some very good (Klesko, Avery, Blauser, Lemke, Castilla, Merker, Wohlers, etc.) and some had significant plays or play that helped the Braves (Hunter, Cabrera) some were cut short due to injury (Pete Smith, Stanton, Nied, etc.)

The point is, the Braves didn't sign Pendelton, Bream, Belliard, Liebrant when the majority of the Braves young help was 3-4 years away. They signed them when they thought the help was 1-2 years away. In a way, they were surprised it all came together in 1991, as the thought at the time was that it would likely be 1992 before things gelled. But once the team did gel, the farm wasn't bare. There was still a huge crop of hitting and some excellent pitching that was close and the Braves used it to replace expensive veterans (for the day) and to trade for necessary pieces (McGriff). When Maddux became available, the Braves weren't saddled with a lot of dead salary that prevented it (Even with Ted running the team, the Braves tended to be cost conscious to an extent).

Now, the Braves did in fact try to jump the gun back then by signing Nick Esasky as a FA. Esasky developed Lyme Disease and never played meaningful minutes for the Braves. The Braves also held on to Dale Murphy long, LONG past his best trade value and had to virtually give him away (sending Tommy Greene as part of the package which hurt worse than getting nothing for Murphy). I guess the 5,000 souls a night showing up to see Skip Carey explain the infield fly rule were there because Murphy was going to play...

The current Braves, while they have done much in effort to rebuild, are no where near in the position of those early 90's teams because they don't have hitting depth in the minors, especially power potential. They need to continue the rebuild, hopefully one more year will do it, and THEN spend some cash to fill the holes.
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That's exactly the point. It's a good thing we didn't sit back and do nothing, or else we wouldn't have gone to the World Series in 91 and 92 and we would've waited for 93 to care about winning or losing and attendance. I loved those 2 seasons. I'm sure Ted may quite a bit of cash in those 2 years. It probably even led to him putting more money in to the team and increasing payroll that allowed us to acquire those free agents you mention.
 
I agree! i think people are misinterpreting some of our suggestions to mean "spend all of the moneyz to win now!" I don't think we are saying that at all, I think we are saying that we think the team will try to improve the present team's talent via free agency and/or trades without selling the farm and still have options for further retooling as the prospects graduate or are used in value trades for what we need.

I don't think we will get Cespedes or Desmond.(IMO, both will re-sign with their present teams) But I wouldn't think it was the end of the world if we did. I DO, however, think that catcher and 3b will be improved and there's a good chance that we trade for a corner bat too. That would still leave places open for Albies and Swanson soon (even if it isn't until 2018) and the guys we add will be gone by the time guys like Riley, Maitan.....etc will be ready.

You gotta field a team better than this one for next year and 2018, making some addition that only cost money is not a bad plan. 8 years $200m for Cespedes isn't happening, of course, but guys like Castro,Weiters, Ramos, or Turner, Prado...etc could. (as could a guy like Reddick or a trade for someone we haven't even considered yet)
 
rico43 said:
Outstanding, thoughtful post by Harry. One detail to correct for the sake of accuracy: Francisco Cabrera was not a farm system development. He was part of the Toronto system until he was almost ready for the big leagues.

Also, a full accounting of the Dale Murphy trade/non-trade is in my series of darkest days in Braves history.
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Thanks for the correction Rico. Long time ago.

And great work on the Murphy trade as well. I think the Cox team (Bobby, Snyder, etc.) were great at bringing in the young talent via the draft and international signings but were fairly poor in maximizing the value of veterans through trade, the Alexander/Smoltz trade being an exception.
 
bravos4evr said:
I agree! i think people are misinterpreting some of our suggestions to mean "spend all of the moneyz to win now!" I don't think we are saying that at all, I think we are saying that we think the team will try to improve the present team's talent via free agency and/or trades without selling the farm and still have options for further retooling as the prospects graduate or are used in value trades for what we need.

I don't think we will get Cespedes or Desmond.(IMO, both will re-sign with their present teams) But I wouldn't think it was the end of the world if we did. I DO, however, think that catcher and 3b will be improved and there's a good chance that we trade for a corner bat too. That would still leave places open for Albies and Swanson soon (even if it isn't until 2018) and the guys we add will be gone by the time guys like Riley, Maitan.....etc will be ready.

You gotta field a team better than this one for next year and 2018, making some addition that only cost money is not a bad plan. 8 years $200m for Cespedes isn't happening, of course, but guys like Castro,Weiters, Ramos, or Turner, Prado...etc could. (as could a guy like Reddick or a trade for someone we haven't even considered yet)
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I don't have an issue with some targeted signings. My issue is focusing on improvement of record for 2017 at the expense of young talent for 2018 and beyond is likely either going to prolong the rebuild or make it crater altogether because it means that instead of maximizing the trade value of the current veterans on the team GIVEN THE RIGHT RETURN, and filling the holes still present in the minor league system (position players, power, OF, 3B, C, etc.), management will likely hang on to those veterans as part of the 2017 strategy. That helps achieve that mid 70 win total in 2017 but starves the fire in 2018 and beyond unless you get really lucky and the veterans that you keep perform so well that they not only justify their salary through the end of their contract but exceed that value by the value of what they might have brought back in trade return back in 2016.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
I don't have an issue with some targeted signings. My issue is focusing on improvement of record for 2017 at the expense of young talent for 2018 and beyond is likely either going to prolong the rebuild or make it crater altogether because it means that instead of maximizing the trade value of the current veterans on the team GIVEN THE RIGHT RETURN, and filling the holes still present in the minor league system (position players, power, OF, 3B, C, etc.), management will likely hang on to those veterans as part of the 2017 strategy. That helps achieve that mid 70 win total in 2017 but starves the fire in 2018 and beyond unless you get really lucky and the veterans that you keep perform so well that they not only justify their salary through the end of their contract but exceed that value by the value of what they might have brought back in trade return back in 2016.
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I don't think we have any veterans to trade that wouldn't be moved. Freeman and Teheran aren't because of a combo of value we would need vs what someone would pay, their ages and the fact that the team doesn't want to alienate the fanbase without a HUGE return to point at. Every single other veteran is movable. (and I think as many as possible will be moved, I could see Inciarte moved too.)

JT is only 25, so I don't see it as required to move him now. Even if we waited until after 2017 we could get a good return for him. No need to move him because we feel like we have to maximize his value now. That may end up not maximizing it at all. And even if he becomes a 2 WAR pitcher, he's still a bargain.
 
bravos4evr said:
I don't think we have any veterans to trade that wouldn't be moved. Freeman and Teheran aren't because of a combo of value we would need vs what someone would pay, their ages and the fact that the team doesn't want to alienate the fanbase without a HUGE return to point at. Every single other veteran is movable. (and I think as many as possible will be moved, I could see Inciarte moved too.)

JT is only 25, so I don't see it as required to move him now. Even if we waited until after 2017 we could get a good return for him. No need to move him because we feel like we have to maximize his value now. That may end up not maximizing it at all. And even if he becomes a 2 WAR pitcher, he's still a bargain.
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But, if you move Teheran and/or Freeman then the whole improvement to 75-80 wins in 2017 goes out the window, even with the addition of non premier FA for 3B and the OF. So, saying the win total is a priority for 2017 is saying that Teheran and Freeman stay, which means that you don't give THE RIGHT RETURN a chance to happen. Essentially you set the bar so high that you know it won't happen.

Even keeping Teheran and Freeman, but subtracting Inciarte, Viz, Markakis, Flowers, etc. means that any offseason FA additions likely only replace what you traded.

Concern with the win total in 2017 implicitly means that the rebuild is done. And it clearly isn't.
 
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