Vizcaino trade market?

P

Preacher

Where's My Cup of Coffee?
We've spent a ton of time talking about Tehrean, but how likely are we to pursue a Vizcaino trade this summer?

Given how good he's looked, how useless it is to have a great closer on a bad team and how much the Phils were able to get out of trading Giles....... certainly something that should be on the table.

I'm more eager to move Viz than I am JT.

I know there's a balancing act going on here; at some point you do have to keep the talented young players and stop trading them, but my belief is we are still a couple years away from contending and if that's the case I don't think we need an elite closer -- if he can be flipped for a couple high upside prospects; I'm all about it.
 
Preacher said:
We've spent a ton of time talking about Tehrean, but how likely are we to pursue a Vizcaino trade this summer?

Given how good he's looked, how useless it is to have a great closer on a bad team and how much the Phils were able to get out of trading Giles....... certainly something that should be on the table.

I'm more eager to move Viz than I am JT.

I know there's a balancing act going on here; at some point you do have to keep the talented young players and stop trading them, but my belief is we are still a couple years away from contending and if that's the case I don't think we need an elite closer -- if he can be flipped for a couple high upside prospects; I'm all about it.
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Can trading him fill one of the glaring holes in this young team moving forward? I am not in favor of trading him just because we are not competitive right now. Only if it addresses one of the glaring holes. We know exactly what they are.
 
If we could get close to what the Phils got for their closer, then yes.

Viz is really good and cheap. I wouldn't give him away.

But I would rather trade Viz than Tehran. I think the Braves can replace Viz. Viz has some injury and PED history that concerns.

I would think the market would be big for him. Teams always want power arms. The issue would be if the Yankees become sellers and miller or chapman become available.
 
Russ2dollas said:
If we could get close to what the Phils got for their closer, then yes.

Viz is really good and cheap. I wouldn't give him away.

But I would rather trade Viz than Tehran. I think the Braves can replace Viz. Viz has some injury and PED history that concerns.

I would think the market would be big for him. Teams always want power arms. The issue would be if the Yankees become sellers and miller or chapman become available.
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Are the Yankees ever really sellers? JK of course.
 
mfree80 said:
Can trading him fill one of the glaring holes in this young team moving forward? I am not in favor of trading him just because we are not competitive right now. Only if it addresses one of the glaring holes. We know exactly what they are.
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I agree with the idea that Teheran should be moved to fill a glaring hole..... but for Viz I wouldn't really care about what position the prospects we get back play, I care a lot more about their value. For a rebuilding team I think targeting value generally makes a lot more sense than targeting specific positions. All things being equal - if we can get great value at a position of need, that's obviously the way to do it; but if we get two really good starting pitching prospects, or a really good starting pitching prospect and a really good SS prospect; I'd be fine with that as well.

Those pieces can be flipped for other pieces, or it could allow some of our other pieces to be traded. I tend to think 'get the best players' figure everything else out later.

He's had an arm injury, he's a closer on a crappy team and he's lights-out right now -- to me that's a perfect guy to trade.
 
Like Teheran, Viz is a piece we shouldn't only trade if someone is willing to overpay. I agree that it doesn't make sense to trade him just because we're bad. It's not like he's a highly paid closer on a bad team.
 
striker42 said:
Like Teheran, Viz is a piece we shouldn't only trade if someone is willing to overpay. I agree that it doesn't make sense to trade him just because we're bad. It's not like he's a highly paid closer on a bad team.
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I think this is where we look at the situation different, because I think it makes all the sense in the world to trade him 'because we're bad'. I just don't see the need big-picture for a great closer with trade value on a team that is tremendously awful and in the middle of a rebuild. Strategically, how is Viz helping? The argument would be that Viz would be part of the pen when the Braves are competitive again, but I don't think that window is opening until 2018; and I don't want to waste a couple years of his value.

Wouldn't his value be better served by converting him into prospects and players that can be used to fill bigger holes and would have more years of control? Also, I'm certainly not saying to give him away, or trade him for a bad package, but especially for Viz; I don't need to win the deal, or be overwhelmed to trade him.

Not saying you're wrong - but I think we just look at it differently.
 
striker42 said:
Like Teheran, Viz is a piece we shouldn't only trade if someone is willing to overpay. I agree that it doesn't make sense to trade him just because we're bad. It's not like he's a highly paid closer on a bad team.
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That's true, but he's also a hard thrower with an injury history and a steroid suspension, with only 2 years of team control left after this season. I'd rather trade him for a nice haul that fills a need than hold out for an overpay and risk him losing most or all of his trade value.
 
Preacher said:
I think this is where we look at the situation different, because I think it makes all the sense in the world to trade him 'because we're bad'. I just don't see the need big-picture for a great closer with trade value on a team that is tremendously awful and in the middle of a rebuild. Strategically, how is Viz helping? The argument would be that Viz would be part of the pen when the Braves are competitive again, but I don't think that window is opening until 2018; and I don't want to waste a couple years of his value.

Wouldn't his value be better served by converting him into prospects and players that can be used to fill bigger holes and would have more years of control? Also, I'm certainly not saying to give him away, or trade him for a bad package, but especially for Viz; I don't need to win the deal, or be overwhelmed to trade him.

Not saying you're wrong - but I think we just look at it differently.
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It's unlikely we're going to be this bad next year.
 
Preacher said:
I think this is where we look at the situation different, because I think it makes all the sense in the world to trade him 'because we're bad'. I just don't see the need big-picture for a great closer with trade value on a team that is tremendously awful and in the middle of a rebuild. Strategically, how is Viz helping? The argument would be that Viz would be part of the pen when the Braves are competitive again, but I don't think that window is opening until 2018; and I don't want to waste a couple years of his value.

Wouldn't his value be better served by converting him into prospects and players that can be used to fill bigger holes and would have more years of control? Also, I'm certainly not saying to give him away, or trade him for a bad package, but especially for Viz; I don't need to win the deal, or be overwhelmed to trade him.

Not saying you're wrong - but I think we just look at it differently.
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Preacher: I see exactly what you are saying, and that has been the approach for the past two years with great success. However, now that the farm is strong, and the pipeline in good shape and about to get stronger... I think it is time to start looking strategically at the glaring holes for the future. Not just measuring trades by excess value, but looking to fill specific holes.

Maybe I am just looking at the timeline a little differently.
 
Preacher said:
I think this is where we look at the situation different, because I think it makes all the sense in the world to trade him 'because we're bad'. I just don't see the need big-picture for a great closer with trade value on a team that is tremendously awful and in the middle of a rebuild. Strategically, how is Viz helping? The argument would be that Viz would be part of the pen when the Braves are competitive again, but I don't think that window is opening until 2018; and I don't want to waste a couple years of his value.
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I don't think it really boils down to "closer versus starter" when looking at Vizcaíno's ability to contribute once the Braves are "good" again. Even if 2018 is your speculated season-of-resurgence, that gives the Braves two competitive seasons with Vizcaíno as their closer (since he isn't a free-agent until after the 2019 season). Thus he would still be very useful to the team when they're actually competing (assuming, always, health).

When looking at Vizcaíno's case, relative to Tekeran's, I really think the difference is cost-control. Julion's cost is locked in, at a pretty outrageously affordable rate, so the team knows both that he'll be around when they hope to compete and at what price-tag. This is where a lot of his value lies (to any team, but especially to a team like Atlanta, already gazing dreamily at future seasons in May of the current one). Vizcaíno, meanwhile, is arbitration-eligible for the first time this offseason, so he could see a big bump in his salary, even if he can't go anywhere of his own accord until post-2019.

That issue of looming arbitration years, I think, is the ultimate reason he's a better option to spin-off now—but I also see good arguments for keeping him around, especially if the offers aren't pretty weighted towards Atlanta's side.
 
Closers are volatile, easily replaced and not as mythical as the media portrays them to be. We should be calling the Rangers right now and working a deal for a prospect haul for Viz. They need a closer, we need young bats, they have many. Plus, if we act now, the Rangers not only gain extra months of control, but we avoid the Yankees inevitable sell off of Miller and Chapman that would dilute the market.
 
rawwr said:
That's true, but he's also a hard thrower with an injury history and a steroid suspension, with only 2 years of team control left after this season. I'd rather trade him for a nice haul that fills a need than hold out for an overpay and risk him losing most or all of his trade value.
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This is wrong. He gets his first shot at arbitration next year and is a FA in 2020. He can certainly be a part of the next good team.

"Being on a bad team" can't always be the excuse for trading guys away because then the team will never be good. At some point steps have to be made to become a good MLB team. Guys like Teheran and Viz are not some declining players on expiring contracts. They are good young players under team control for quite a few more years. Those are the guys you try to build a competitive team around.

If either Teheran or Viz are traded it is a clear signal the team is not committed to winning in 2017. No matter what the prospect return is in either trade, the 2017 team will be worse for it, and that means another terrible season is guaranteed.
 
Enscheff said:
This is wrong. He gets his first shot at arbitration next year and is a FA in 2020. He can certainly be a part of the next good team.

"Being on a bad team" can't always be the excuse for trading guys away because then the team will never be good. At some point steps have to be made to become a good MLB team. Guys like Teheran and Viz are not some declining players on expiring contracts. They are good young players under team control for quite a few more years. Those are the guys you try to build a competitive team around.

If either Teheran or Viz are traded it is a clear signal the team is not committed to winning in 2017. No matter what the prospect return is in either trade, the 2017 team will be worse for it, and that means another terrible season is guaranteed.
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no sir, he agreed to a contract THIS YEAR avoiding his first year of arby, he has 2 more controlled arby years remaining.
 
So what would our record be if we had a healthy Viz/Winkler/Simmons in the pen ...
JT/Perez/Blair/Wisler/Folty/Chacin/Norris.. all starting like they have this year....
A 2B that has an OB .330 and avg of .290 ...
A SS that played avg + defense with a .330 OBP and .290 avg
Flowers was the everyday catcher and AJ only caught 1.5 / 5 days...

Would Neck being playing better? would FF be hitting more? would Ender get more pitches to hit?

I know this is impossible to really say, but I think we have actually played pretty well and I personally think if we had competence playing SS and at least one other position, then we would be around .500... if you throw in a lock down pen that would pretty much close games down from 7th on.. then I would say we would be over .500
 
our record might be a game or two better with those arms healthy, but it wouldn't be as dramatic a difference as you might think.
 
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