Vizcaino trade market?

bravesfanMatt said:
Right, they bought this year Arb out. But he is still under control til 2020.
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no, you get 3 years of arby unless you are a super two (which he is not) so he will have 2017 and 2018 arbitration and reach free agency after the completion of the 2018 season. (check the link I posted above)
 
Enscheff said:
This is wrong. He gets his first shot at arbitration next year and is a FA in 2020. He can certainly be a part of the next good team.

"Being on a bad team" can't always be the excuse for trading guys away because then the team will never be good. At some point steps have to be made to become a good MLB team. Guys like Teheran and Viz are not some declining players on expiring contracts. They are good young players under team control for quite a few more years. Those are the guys you try to build a competitive team around.

If either Teheran or Viz are traded it is a clear signal the team is not committed to winning in 2017. No matter what the prospect return is in either trade, the 2017 team will be worse for it, and that means another terrible season is guaranteed.
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Edit: Seems he did get Super Two status and has 3 years of arby. I stand corrected.

Unless the FO seriously believes we will be in contention for a playoff spot in 2017 (and I mean actually believes, not just saying so for PR reasons), there is no reason to commit to winning in 2017, especially if it costs you a chance to make the team better in 2018 and beyond. That kind of fence sitting is what gets teams stuck in a continuous loop of mediocrity.

You can make the argument that we have a shot next year, but there are so many things that have to go right to even get us to the point where Viz is what puts us over the top into contention that I don't feel like it's worth talking about. Even assuming Inciarte/Freeman/Teheran/Wisler continue to perform well, you'd still need to sign/trade for upgrades at C, 3B, SP and multiple RP AND hope Swanson/Albies don't take time to adjust to MLB AND hope Markakis recovers somewhat AND hope Folty and Mallex take another step forward. That's so many moving parts and if more than a couple of them don't work out as well as you'd hope, you've just wasted one of Viz's remaining years of control. And then on top of that you're running the risk that he injures his arm again and you don't get anything for him at all.

On the other hand, you could trade him at the deadline for a piece that fills a need that's close to the majors and hopefully is ready to contribute in another year or two, around the same time as Albies and Swanson. With them coming up combined with Inciarte/Freeman/Teheran/Wisler under control for another 4-5 years, our planned window should be 2018-2021, not 2017.
 
rawwr said:
Edit: Seems he did get Super Two status and has 3 years of arby. I stand corrected.

Unless the FO seriously believes we will be in contention for a playoff spot in 2017 (and I mean actually believes, not just saying so for PR reasons), there is no reason to commit to winning in 2017, especially if it costs you a chance to make the team better in 2018 and beyond. That kind of fence sitting is what gets teams stuck in a continuous loop of mediocrity.

You can make the argument that we have a shot next year, but there are so many things that have to go right to even get us to the point where Viz is what puts us over the top into contention that I don't feel like it's worth talking about. Even assuming Inciarte/Freeman/Teheran/Wisler continue to perform well, you'd still need to sign/trade for upgrades at C, 3B, SP and multiple RP AND hope Swanson/Albies don't take time to adjust to MLB AND hope Markakis recovers somewhat AND hope Folty and Mallex take another step forward. That's so many moving parts and if more than a couple of them don't work out as well as you'd hope, you've just wasted one of Viz's remaining years of control. And then on top of that you're running the risk that he injures his arm again and you don't get anything for him at all.

On the other hand, you could trade him at the deadline for a piece that fills a need that's close to the majors and hopefully is ready to contribute in another year or two, around the same time as Albies and Swanson. With them coming up combined with Inciarte/Freeman/Teheran/Wisler under control for another 4-5 years, our planned window should be 2018-2021, not 2017.
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I'm not arguing about whether or not the team can be competitive in 2017 (though I think it most certainly can), I'm saying that if guys like Teheran or Viz are traded then the FO is waving the white flag on 2017. If they truly want to be better next year then trading either of those pitchers is not the way to go about making that happen.

At some point they have to stop putting off their attempt to be competitive and start trying to accumulate MLB assets. Maybe 2017 is that year to start, and maybe it's not. Every year new guys are going to be "good players wasted on bad teams" until the team draws the line and decides to become better.
 
Saw this on the other board.... Don't know if it is posturing, but; For what it's worth, Coppy was on Atlanta radio this morning and said the days of trading away core players for just prospects were over and any trade involving those guys would have to immediately help the big league club.
So expect if Teheran is traded it would be for immediate impact.
 
If the Astros can turn things around I could see a Springer or Bregman trade working out for Teheran and Inciarte. Bregman is close enough that he could start at 3b out of ST like Swanson and Albies.
 
Enscheff said:
I'm not arguing about whether or not the team can be competitive in 2017 (though I think it most certainly can), I'm saying that if guys like Teheran or Viz are traded then the FO is waving the white flag on 2017. If they truly want to be better next year then trading either of those pitchers is not the way to go about making that happen.

At some point they have to stop putting off their attempt to be competitive and start trying to accumulate MLB assets. Maybe 2017 is that year to start, and maybe it's not. Every year new guys are going to be "good players wasted on bad teams" until the team draws the line and decides to become better.
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And, either way, with Vizcaíno not a free-agent until after 2019, the team doesn't need to think about 2017 at all when weighing trading him or keeping him. They can instead weigh the strength of power arms in the organization that may be suited for back-end work (and the post-rehab performance of Shae Simmons' may influence that adjudication) against the returns teams are offering for Arodys; they can then weigh both those elements against how they project Vizcaíno's salary to increase through arbitration over the next three seasons (and/or pursue a very team-favorable arb-buyout/extension with him, which he and his representation might consider given his injury history).
 
Enscheff said:
At some point they have to stop putting off their attempt to be competitive and start trying to accumulate MLB assets. Maybe 2017 is that year to start, and maybe it's not. Every year new guys are going to be "good players wasted on bad teams" until the team draws the line and decides to become better.
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Yeah I don't disagree that we'll have to stop the prospect stockpiling at some point, I just don't think that time is now. You've still got Swanson/Albies/Newcomb/Sims/Blair/Folty who haven't established themselves in the majors yet, but stand to see significant playing time by 2017. I'm fine trading Viz if it brings us something like Zunino+ or Gallo that fills a need with an MLB-ready prospect who can join that group in getting their feet wet in 2017.
 
Vizcaino gained a lot of service time because he was called up in September and got hurt in the offseason so he couldnt be sent back to the minors until he was physically cleared. Thats why he was still on prospect lists entering his arb years.
 
IMO,regardless of how many years of control he has left, closers are overrated, overpaid and over valued. If we can get a haul for him, we should do it. Simmons is more than capable of holding down the job when he returns. (as are most capable relievers)
 
bravos4evr said:
IMO,regardless of how many years of control he has left, closers are overrated, overpaid and over valued. If we can get a haul for him, we should do it. Simmons is more than capable of holding down the job when he returns. (as are most capable relievers)
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I agree, but I still want a 'win' in a trade. a two headed monster with Viz and Simmons would be awfully good for the next 3 years...
 
bravesfanMatt said:
I agree, but I still want a 'win' in a trade. a two headed monster with Viz and Simmons would be awfully good for the next 3 years...
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Oh sure, we don't HAVE to trade him, he isn't expensive or anything. I don't think he would bring back a Kimbrel or Giles sized deal, but he could bring 2 highly thought of prospects from someone. If the Rangers or whoever want to pay through the nose, then you make the deal. If not, you wait until the offseason when Chapman drops off the board and see who blinks.
 
I would value Viz's surplus value over his remaining years of contractual control at 3-4 wins. If we can get a prospect in the 25-50 range of the Top 100 lists, that would be a good trade for us. Alternatively, I'd be good with a "fair" trade that netted us a major league catcher.
 
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