nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
devils in the details...for a cautionary tale see Uggla extension at a similar age
What should our lineup look like next year?
- Thread starter Slippyjms
- Start date
zbhargrove
Well-known member
I'm not entirely sure... you're right. But the statement wondering why people are thinking Camargo could at least be a short term solution is a bit daft. He's been very good and a platoon with him and Ruiz (who also has shown favorable splits for a platoon) in the short term is certainly not that bad. I still would probably prefer to try and sell high on Camargo and bring someone like Nunez in. I like Moose more than most, but I can't imagine paying him what he will demand.
It all depends on whether they truly think they can compete next year.
If they do, they need to dump Kemp, move Markakis to LF, and promote Acuna. They need to sign at least Frazier for 3b. They need to drop Dickey and sign at least Cobb.
All that and I can see Braves as an 80 win team that is a few gold breaks away from being limited buyers at the deadline.
If they think they need to buy another year for the rebuild (the route I would advise), they need to stay the course. Let Markakis and Kemp continue to be placeholders for Acuna. Let Dickey soak up cheap innings. Let Camargo and Ruiz take their lumps at 3b.
It's either/or. Either fix the rotation, 3b and LF, or continue taking their lumps. Trying to take the middle road is the worst possible course of action.
I'm guessing the FO is desperate to win, so we are going to see an exciting "all in" offseason. I'm not optimistic it will turn out well, but at least it will make everyone look forward to 2018.
If they do, they need to dump Kemp, move Markakis to LF, and promote Acuna. They need to sign at least Frazier for 3b. They need to drop Dickey and sign at least Cobb.
All that and I can see Braves as an 80 win team that is a few gold breaks away from being limited buyers at the deadline.
If they think they need to buy another year for the rebuild (the route I would advise), they need to stay the course. Let Markakis and Kemp continue to be placeholders for Acuna. Let Dickey soak up cheap innings. Let Camargo and Ruiz take their lumps at 3b.
It's either/or. Either fix the rotation, 3b and LF, or continue taking their lumps. Trying to take the middle road is the worst possible course of action.
I'm guessing the FO is desperate to win, so we are going to see an exciting "all in" offseason. I'm not optimistic it will turn out well, but at least it will make everyone look forward to 2018.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
Pretty much agree with everything here. Although, I think in an ideal "go for it" off season, we would somehow get rid of Kemp and Markakis... however unlikely it is. Acuna and JD Martinez, plus Nunez and Cobb would be my dream off season. Like you, though... not sure it would turn out well.
Southcack77
Well-known member
The surest bet in baseball is that whoever pays Stanton for his post prime years is going to regret it dearly.
This is a guy who hasn't stayed healthy in his healthy prime. Who hasn't consistently been an elite player in his prime.
His defense is going to decline rapidly. He's going to strike out more. He's going to continue to get injured.
Even the very best players in baseball, maybe especially the very best players in baseball, end their careers with salaries like albatrosses.
This would be {not be a good IMO} move by the Braves and no amount of trading away two years of a bad contract for ten years of a horrid contract is going to change that. When the very best thing that can happen is that the guy will play well and opt out. You can't play that game of Russian Roulette if you have any sort of payroll limitations.
Please drop this. The Braves big problem is the pitching is so bad. They don't need a big slugger to improve. they need pitching.
This is a guy who hasn't stayed healthy in his healthy prime. Who hasn't consistently been an elite player in his prime.
His defense is going to decline rapidly. He's going to strike out more. He's going to continue to get injured.
Even the very best players in baseball, maybe especially the very best players in baseball, end their careers with salaries like albatrosses.
This would be {not be a good IMO} move by the Braves and no amount of trading away two years of a bad contract for ten years of a horrid contract is going to change that. When the very best thing that can happen is that the guy will play well and opt out. You can't play that game of Russian Roulette if you have any sort of payroll limitations.
Please drop this. The Braves big problem is the pitching is so bad. They don't need a big slugger to improve. they need pitching.
I think we will do a "go for it" offseason as well. We have 3 to 4 years before we have to start doling out arbitration cases outside of Folty. I think Julio will be flipped as soon as he rebuilds value, so outside of Kemp Freeman is the only contract on the books of note. I'd rather they go this route than trade away prospects. Pitching is so volatile we may need all we got to win the attrition war.
If we ate half of Kemp's contract to move him, traded Matt Adams, and didn't tender Dickey we could have some more cash to work with. The years would be my focus moreso than the money.
Current MLBTR article expresses pretty much the same opinion as mine and some comments by other posters (power won't hold up) and obviously speculates on the names that you cited.
Stay the course. Still not the offseason to trade young talent. Stack up the bullpen, let Acuna come up in May and play Camargo 120 games at third 8 at short and 8 at second.
The only move that I'd be ok with is signing someone like Cobb/Lynn so that the young arms may get some more time in AAA/
2018 is not a WS year. Its all about assessing the young talent before the big move. We haven't had enough time to make the determination on who stays and goes yet.
The only move that I'd be ok with is signing someone like Cobb/Lynn so that the young arms may get some more time in AAA/
2018 is not a WS year. Its all about assessing the young talent before the big move. We haven't had enough time to make the determination on who stays and goes yet.
Frazier has a value to him. He'd provide the RH pop they want behind Freeman and the clubhouse guy they want. He'd replace Kemp and Nick.
I like Camargo but I like him more as a super utility guy more than a starter.
GeorgiaGirl
NL Rookie of the Year
Less than one season of at bats is entirely WAAAYYY too early to say that "This is who a guy really is" in Camargo's case, sorry.
You need well over one season to declare "This is who a guy really is". Well over it. And I mean major league at bats, not minor.
You need well over one season to declare "This is who a guy really is". Well over it. And I mean major league at bats, not minor.
With a guy like Camargo why couldn't those AB's be spread out over 4 positions playing semi-regularly? If you're trying to find out who a guy really is that sounds like a better way than handing them a starting job. There's value to having a guy like that
What you say makes sense, but I can't imagine them holding Acuna off for another year. Technically, unless he struggles in AFL or Spring Training, they would be in danger of failing to live up to the CBA if they held him off, though if the Cubs could do it with Bryant, the Braves could at least hold him off for a few weeks, and nobody could say anything. I'll be pleased but shocked if they even do that, though. I am excited to see him, and am anxious to see a palatable on-field product.
As I age, I get less patient with wasted years, and I suppose a lot of fans are the same. The FO does have to balance fan perceptions/preferences and long term rebuilding effectiveness. It ain't easy. I am willing to wait a little longer for sustained results. I wonder how many others are, though. It's easy to be short-sighted, but nobody will be happy with five or six more years of mediocrity (or worse), so they need to act wisely, even at the risk of angering some in the short term.
The question is how long can Freeman sustain this production until the kids come up and mature.
Swanson has gone through growing pains and who know when he'll hit his stride. Albies has not really gone through a Swansonesque slump yet, but it will come. If Freeman's production declines, that's A LOT of offense to make up.
Swanson has gone through growing pains and who know when he'll hit his stride. Albies has not really gone through a Swansonesque slump yet, but it will come. If Freeman's production declines, that's A LOT of offense to make up.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
Prob less than 1% chance it happens but Ohtani sure would solve some problems
I highly doubt the FO is going to sit back and not make some noise this offseason to drum up some excitment for year 2 of the park. That's why I'd advocate going the FA route. Wiht all of the kids we have coming it's going to be a while before we have to start doling our money. This would be the time to carry some money on the books before we hand out extensions or have to start guessing who is going to make too much in arbitration.
If there's a team that could promise Ohtani a couple starts a week in the OF, it would be the Braves. Still only about a 1% chance of happening though.
This is why many of us feel the same way IMO. The prudent thing to do is continue with the rebuild, but it's tough to sell even the "more-advanced" fan on holding off and that you honestly believe in these kids if the resources are available to plug a hole or two and the kids perform like you expect them to. It won't take very long for the attendance to dwindle in that shiny new park if 2018 is a repeat of this season. No, somebody like Moustakas may not be absolutely ideal, but he's a FAR sight better than anything on the horizon for the next 3-4 years if you're not a Riley believer. The Braves CAN afford him, but whether they will or should is obviously a fair debate. I'm not nearly as big on Frazier personally, but certainly understand the appeal he has for others. I think your point that "it ain't easy" gets lost in most discussions here. IF some of these kids are as good as hoped, adding a piece or two to at least put the team in contention as early as next season - as long as it only costs money - arguably makes you "relevant" in 2018 and a legitimate contender in 2019. Add Moustakas and Cobb with the savings from Colon/Garcia/Dickey and count on these kids - with Kemp and Markakis coming off the books over the next two years you can work on extending the best of the bunch.
If there's two successful MLB SPs out of the Folty/Newcomb/Fried/Soroka/Wentz group and a legitimate #1/#2 guy (not necessarily a true "Ace") out of the Gohara/Wright/Allard trio, you've at least got a shot - if not, the rebuild is going to need rebooting anyway. Heaven knows the Royals had more question marks and less to work with when they started their little run.
As another old guy I'm not interested in waiting 5 more years, but am also a believer in Acuna/Albies/Swanson/and believe several of the arms are going to adapt much faster than Folty has and am willing to roll the dice with a couple strong adds this winter to plug holes, but I completely understand why others want to keep preaching patience - the thing about exercising that patience is that you need to go all-in if you're going to do that and you need to go ahead and trade Freeman and Ender THIS winter if you're willing to wait. If you don't believe in what's already the best farm system in the game, you aren't likely ever going to be happy with the organization (and that's OK). Just understand that doing so will cost everyone in management their jobs because when that shiny new ballpark sits there filled to 25%-30% capacity for the next several years, you're going to get canned - no matter what the metrics and Statcast say.