What was the stupidest thing the three Johns did?

[Braves1976]

Concerning Cahill:

1) Former 18-game winner
2) Had plenty of looks at Wandy in spring
3) One year deal can be dumped at any time
4) Could easily afford the contract
5) He still had/has a healthy arm
6) Elander no longer had any value (Except this)

This was a flyer that didn't pan out, nothing more.

My biggest boner was dealing Kubitza and Hyatt for a child who can't stay off the DL.

Wandy had a perfect game going into the 6th today after totally shutting down Houston's offense last time out. So apparently they didn't have enough looks at him..

@TracyRingolsby · 2h 2 hours ago
Wandy Rodriguez strikes out Logan Forsythe on 3-2 curveball, giving Rodriguez Rangers record 32 consecutive batters retired. Ken Hill had 31

 

[Braves1976]

I am torn between getting Miller and unloading Old Upton as the sharpest thing they did, but what is the stupidest?

I am nearly always underwhelmed by prospects for productive MLers trades, and I wasn't fond of the JUpton return, at least not yet. But I think the stupidest thing was acquiring Trevor Cahill and paying him $5.5m. It was stupid the instant we got him, and amazingly enough, he's pitched worse than that. And to spend $5.5m on the guy? You had Wandy and a half dozen prospects for that job, and Cahill was not a clear improvement over any of them.

Are you still not fond of the return for Justin? I had concerns about it too, esp. given Hart's comments that suggested they mishandled the situation and didn't get the type of deal they wanted for him. But all that aside I'd argue the deal has so far looked like it will end up our best trade if Fried comes back strong. I have really liked both Peterson's and Mallex Smith so far. Further, I agreed with you about Cahill at the time of the trade and my opinion is still the same. It only made it look more stupid that we dropped Wandy to make room for him.

 

[weso1]

I didn't think any of the trades/signings were stupid. They all made sense and were easily defensible. Cahill was a shot in the dark, but they also got the 75th pick. Don't care about the money as it only impacts a year in which we are not competing. Don't think Elander and Reyes will do anything. So logically it made sense to at least see if Cahill could get off to a hot start. And who knows? Maybe he'll actually be decent in the pen. Wandy over Stultz might have been the miss. Wandy hasn't been a bad starter in his career and might have been a guy we could have flipped for a top 50 prospect. Markakis might make more sense in LF. I enjoy watching him play. The biggest question is how will he be with the bat in 2017? If he's still hitting like he is now then we're good to go, but if age catches up with him then that signing will wind up being the dumbest move Hart made.

 

[mossy]

Trading Wainright.

 

[GovClintonTyree]

Are you still not fond of the return for Justin? I had concerns about it too, esp. given Hart's comments that suggested they mishandled the situation and didn't get the type of deal they wanted for him. But all that aside I'd argue the deal has so far looked like it will end up our best trade if Fried comes back strong. I have really liked both Peterson's and Mallex Smith so far. Further, I agreed with you about Cahill at the time of the trade and my opinion is still the same. It only made it look more stupid that we dropped Wandy to make room for him.

My bad, not the trade I meant.

I got my trades bolluxed up in my mind. That one looks pretty good, I agree - four prospects, all off them look pretty good assuming Fried gets back. Smith looks downright exciting.

I didn't like the Houston prospects, so that was the Gattis deal. I don't fall in love with radar guns, and I think Folty lacks something. I thought Ruiz might hit, but, ye cats. Never heard of the third guy, Thurman. And for Gattis power, and four years control, that return seems a little thin.

Those who are saying Cahill was "just a flyer," yeah, he was, but anybody who's been watching him the last few years knew that was a lousy place to put chips, a lost cause. You either go with a decent veteran on payroll for a mil or two (and Wandy is that, even in ST he was that) or you give the slot to kids. There was no reason to light five and a half million dollars on fire and give it to a lazy, stupid, erratic pitcher.

In fact, I just don't like spending middle money. Use kids and $1m vets for bench and bullpen. Cahill, JJohnson, Callaspo, Grilli, EY...add all that up, you're getting close to saving enough to resign The Good Upton.

 

[Braves1976]

My bad, not the trade I meant.

I got my trades bolluxed up in my mind. That one looks pretty good, I agree - four prospects, all off them look pretty good assuming Fried gets back. Smith looks downright exciting.

I didn't like the Houston prospects, so that was the Gattis deal. I don't fall in love with radar guns, and I think Folty lacks something. I thought Ruiz might hit, but, ye cats. Never heard of the third guy, Thurman. And for Gattis power, and four years control, that return seems a little thin.

Those who are saying Cahill was "just a flyer," yeah, he was, but anybody who's been watching him the last few years knew that was a lousy place to put chips, a lost cause. You either go with a decent veteran on payroll for a mil or two (and Wandy is that, even in ST he was that) or you give the slot to kids. There was no reason to light five and a half million dollars on fire and give it to a lazy, stupid, erratic pitcher.

In fact, I just don't like spending middle money. Use kids and $1m vets for bench and bullpen. Cahill, JJohnson, Callaspo, Grilli, EY...add all that up, you're getting close to saving enough to resign The Good Upton.

Well said! Seriously, we pretty much totally agree here.

 

[clvclv]

My bad, not the trade I meant.

I got my trades bolluxed up in my mind. That one looks pretty good, I agree - four prospects, all off them look pretty good assuming Fried gets back. Smith looks downright exciting.

I didn't like the Houston prospects, so that was the Gattis deal. I don't fall in love with radar guns, and I think Folty lacks something. I thought Ruiz might hit, but, ye cats. Never heard of the third guy, Thurman. And for Gattis power, and four years control, that return seems a little thin.

Those who are saying Cahill was "just a flyer," yeah, he was, but anybody who's been watching him the last few years knew that was a lousy place to put chips, a lost cause. You either go with a decent veteran on payroll for a mil or two (and Wandy is that, even in ST he was that) or you give the slot to kids. There was no reason to light five and a half million dollars on fire and give it to a lazy, stupid, erratic pitcher.

In fact, I just don't like spending middle money. Use kids and $1m vets for bench and bullpen. Cahill, JJohnson, Callaspo, Grilli, EY...add all that up, you're getting close to saving enough to resign The Good Upton.

You realize that by the time "The Good Upton" is eligible to be re-signed, all those contracts are off the books other than Grilli's, right? That's a pretty short-sighted view when you consider the fact that having those guys around in a non-contending season will save millions more when it's time to go to arbitration with Wisler/Peraza/et al in a few years.

If they can't afford the contract Justin gets (whether they make a run at him or not) after having cleared all the money they've cleared so far and Grilli has to be traded to come up with an extra $3.5 million to afford to make that kind of signing, that might've been a concern. Of course, clearing "The Bad Upton" and Kimbrel's $26.45 million worth of contracts pretty much guarantees that THAT won't be the reason they couldn't re-sign Justin.

BTW - Jim Johnson is making $1.6 million, KJ is making $1.5 million, and EY's making $1 million. Every one of those players you mention other than Cahill is making significantly lower than the average MLB salary of $4.25 million (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/major-league-baseball-average-salary-meal-money-2015-mlb), and if you deduct the slot value of the #75 pick ($814,300) we also got from Arizona in the Cahill deal he's much closer to that average salary as well.

 

[Tapate50]

Stockpiling pitching in an era where good hitting is scarce and pitching relatively plentiful.

It might be plentiful but not in our system. I hardly think this was the stupidest thing either. It is a HUGE stretch. Pitching is always in style.

 

[GovClintonTyree]

You realize that by the time "The Good Upton" is eligible to be re-signed, all those contracts are off the books other than Grilli's, right? That's a pretty short-sighted view when you consider the fact that having those guys around in a non-contending season will save millions more when it's time to go to arbitration with Wisler/Peraza/et al in a few years.

If they can't afford the contract Justin gets (whether they make a run at him or not) after having cleared all the money they've cleared so far and Grilli has to be traded to come up with an extra $3.5 million to afford to make that kind of signing, that might've been a concern. Of course, clearing "The Bad Upton" and Kimbrel's $26.45 million worth of contracts pretty much guarantees that THAT won't be the reason they couldn't re-sign Justin.

BTW - Jim Johnson is making $1.6 million, KJ is making $1.5 million, and EY's making $1 million. Every one of those players you mention other than Cahill is making significantly lower than the average MLB salary of $4.25 million (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/major-league-baseball-average-salary-meal-money-2015-mlb), and if you deduct the slot value of the #75 pick ($814,300) we also got from Arizona in the Cahill deal he's much closer to that average salary as well.

Yeah, I suppose...not Callaspo, though, you missed one. Doesn't change the fact that we went all Thrift Shop to fill the roster. Every time I looked up, seemed like, we spent middle money on middling players. Grilli, Callaspo, Cahill. That's about $12m, right?

I prefer full price, growing your own and full-on dumpster diving. Then, keep that powder dry and use it to make real improvement.

I guess I'm a grumpy, spoiled Braves fan from all that winning. Even though I remember Buzz Capra winning an ERA title (you can look it up).

 

[gilesfan]

Wandy had a perfect game going into the 6th today after totally shutting down Houston's offense last time out. So apparently they didn't have enough looks at him..

@TracyRingolsby · 2h 2 hours ago
Wandy Rodriguez strikes out Logan Forsythe on 3-2 curveball, giving Rodriguez Rangers record 32 consecutive batters retired. Ken Hill had 31

Yeah, but Wandy had a few walks in his first couple of starts so Stults is better

 

[nsacpi]

It might be plentiful but not in our system. I hardly think this was the stupidest thing either. It is a HUGE stretch. Pitching is always in style.

We'll see. I'm more of a fan of the Cubs Way, which was to have a huge stockpile of position prospects. In the current era, I think it is easier to trade away some of those position prospects for pitching than the other way around. Go Cubbies!

 

[Tapate50]

We'll see. I'm more of a fan of the Cubs Way, which was to have a huge stockpile of position prospects. In the current era, I think it is easier to trade away some of those position prospects for pitching than the other way around. Go Cubbies!

Of paying a 31+ year old FA 155 Mil over 6 years (and a pick?) because we couldn't develop a front line pitcher ourselves? Or trading high upside prospects for players of Tommy LaStella's ilk?

We will just have to disagree. They were dead last in the division last year.

 

[yeezus]

We'll see. I'm more of a fan of the Cubs Way, which was to have a huge stockpile of position prospects. In the current era, I think it is easier to trade away some of those position prospects for pitching than the other way around. Go Cubbies!

Yeah, and spending a lot of money on INT'L (Soler) and getting Bryant with the #2 pick and Schwarber at 4. Why can't we just do that?

 

[Tapate50]

Yeah, and spending a lot of money on INT'L (Soler) and getting Bryant with the #2 pick and Schwarber at 4. Why can't we just do that?

Baez was a high $ signing on the Int'l market right? And he has already been soured on it seems.

 

[GovClintonTyree]

We'll see. I'm more of a fan of the Cubs Way, which was to have a huge stockpile of position prospects. In the current era, I think it is easier to trade away some of those position prospects for pitching than the other way around. Go Cubbies!

....so, if you have to choose growing your own on one side of the ball and having a freer hand to spend and bring in vets on the other, you choose hitting over pitching?

I think from a cost control and playing the percentages standpoint, you might want to rethink that. Hitting is more predictable for longer. Pitching is subject to the vagaries of the 27 year old arm that has thrown a million pitches and, if he's still useful enough to make a FA offer to, you discount the deal in your mind because if he hasn't seen Dr. Andrews for a lollipop by then, he will.

Young, cheap, controllable pitching. Then build your everyday team around a few stars, a few solid guys and a couple platoons (which is a very cheap way to build above average production).

Of course, better than that is young, cheap controllable pitching and hitting, splicing in a key player here there.

 

[50PoundHead]

It might be plentiful but not in our system. I hardly think this was the stupidest thing either. It is a HUGE stretch. Pitching is always in style.

And I think we got some decent position prospects. Too early to tell on Dustin Peterson, but I think people looked at his first full-season year and somehow discounted him. He was the 50th pick overall in the 2013 draft. Mallex Smith is off to a good start in AA, but I wonder if his bat will carry. Ruiz is scuffling right now, but the two-dimensional stat sheet portends that he isn't over-matched.

And I think we are growing some decent guys of our own. If Connor Lien can ditch his Francoeurish approach, he could develop. Still only 21. I'm high on Albies, of course, and I think we have to remember that a year ago, Davidson was probably worried more about his prom date than SALLY League pitching. Curious to see how they balance hitting and pitching in the upcoming draft and international signing period.

PS--Cubs' way was also helped dramatically by Billy Beane's brain fart.

 

[GovClintonTyree]

Of paying a 31+ year old FA 155 Mil over 6 years (and a pick?) because we couldn't develop a front line pitcher ourselves? Or trading high upside prospects for players of Tommy LaStella's ilk?

We will just have to disagree. They were dead last in the division last year.

You made the point in shorter terms, but yeah, that's what's up.

 

[yeezus]

Baez was a high $ signing on the Int'l market right? And he has already been soured on it seems.

Yup, and the Cubbies signed a pitcher this off-season to big $$, and still need a lot more to actually compete.

 

[clvclv]

....so, if you have to choose growing your own on one side of the ball and having a freer hand to spend and bring in vets on the other, you choose hitting over pitching?

I think from a cost control and playing the percentages standpoint, you might want to rethink that. Hitting is more predictable for longer. Pitching is subject to the vagaries of the 27 year old arm that has thrown a million pitches and, if he's still useful enough to make a FA offer to, you discount the deal in your mind because if he hasn't seen Dr. Andrews for a lollipop by then, he will.

Young, cheap, controllable pitching. Then build your everyday team around a few stars, a few solid guys and a couple platoons (which is a very cheap way to build above average production).

Of course, better than that is young, cheap controllable pitching and hitting, splicing in a key player here there.

Doesn't that sound a lot like the dictionary definition of "The Braves' Way" and exactly what all these moves look like they're trying to get back to?

 

[Tapate50]

I know its sexy, but investing 9 figures in over 30 starting pitchers is a silly proposition for this franchise. We may go without an ace, but it would likely blow up in our faces more than the Uggla or Melvin deals, and this franchise paid dearly for those two misfires.