What would Ender bring in a trade

[Russ2dollas]

Um, Acuna would not be good in CF. He has graded out as average or below defensively in the upper minors.

Trading Ender made some sense when Mallex was still in the organization. Not any more.

KLaw is getting worse and worse as time goes on. He is trying to understand surplus value, but can't quite grasp it yet.

Can't go this far. He has a MBA from Carnegie Mellon and he's worked in baseball on the stats side for decades.

I think this gets us into some of our WAR debates. Teams don't put 3 CF in the OF to have great defense across. They look to get bats in the corners. The amount of value they add with the glove and the bat changes per player and likely per team. Klaw's book talks about each team having their own WAR.

To me I disagree with Klaw because I think Acuna is not a great CF glove, I think he has a RF arm and I think he can hit enough for RF. Inciarte I do not think is a great fit in a corner with the bat but he has the D and the Arm.

That said, I would trade Inciarte if it made us better. I think Acuna will be good enough in CF that if I could get the deal Klaw is suggesting, then I'd look at it. A controlled 3B plus two close and potential regulars for Inciarte would be something worth doing. I don't see who that team would be though.....

What I would do is put Inciarte in CF, Acuna in RF and have an expensive platoon in LF. The platoon would be dumb, but I don't care. I've spent the money already and I'm not going to compound the mistake more. If someone wants to take some of the salary off my hands from Kemp or Neck then I look real hard at that. IF you want Inciarte blow me away. But Inciarte is not untouchable. I want Eaton type deal with closer prospects for Inciarte and I don't think I'm getting that.

 

[thewupk]

Probably there is a significant "loss of value" if you have three gold glove caliber center fielders in your outfield. But the loss is quite small with two, especially if the third outfielder has poor range and the other two have to cover more ground to compensate.

If that were the case I could certainly see the guy playing CF having less WAR than if he had bums playing next to him. So in that scenario the CF would likely lose value and this have less trade value. How significant that would be I don't know. But it wouldn't change the overall on the field value though which I think Law is suggesting here.

 

[clvclv]

Roughly, I think he could get us a top 10 prospect plus another one in the top 50. If an offer came along that was significantly better than that, I would say done. For the right price, I'm sure the FO would trade any player.

Now that they finally went out and got Verlander to top-off their rotation, couldn't you imagine what a difference-maker Ender could be playing CF for the Astros for the next handful of years??? They've continued to say that Tucker and Whitley are "unavailable", but wouldn't you have to at least think about moving them if you could add Ender at the top to go with Altuve, Correa, Springer, Bregman, Gurriel, Reddick, Mac, and Fisher for the next couple years? They'd also be able to get Springer out of CF to help keep him healthier.

Sure, he's not Ender defensively (of course, who is?), but could you really say no if we could slide Acuna over and turn Ender into another uber-prospect to replace one of the old guys with AND another high-upside arm that could potentially allow you to then replace the other aging OF or land a 3B? Turn around and offer Folty to Colorado for McMahon, and all of a sudden we start to look a lot like the Cubs and Astros with all those young controllable bats - PLUS we've got a lot more pitching on the way than they do.

Like everyone else, I wouldn't trade Ender unless that's the type of return you got, but if I could get those two guys from Houston I'd sure have to think long and hard about it.

 

[nsacpi]

Now that they finally went out and got Verlander to top-off their rotation, couldn't you imagine what a difference-maker Ender could be playing CF for the Astros for the next handful of years??? They've continued to say that Tucker and Whitley are "unavailable", but wouldn't you have to at least think about moving them if you could add Ender at the top to go with Altuve, Correa, Springer, Bregman, Gurriel, Reddick, Mac, and Fisher for the next couple years? They'd also be able to get Springer out of CF to help keep him healthier.

Sure, he's not Ender defensively (of course, who is?), but could you really say no if we could slide Acuna over and turn Ender into another uber-prospect to replace one of the old guys with AND another high-upside arm that could potentially allow you to then replace the other aging OF or land a 3B? Turn around and offer Folty to Colorado for McMahon, and all of a sudden we start to look a lot like the Cubs and Astros with all those young controllable bats - PLUS we've got a lot more pitching on the way than they do.

Like everyone else, I wouldn't trade Ender unless that's the type of return you got, but if I could get those two guys from Houston I'd sure have to think long and hard about it.

If the Stros offered Tucker, Whitley, Martes and Perez, I'd do it. I agree Inciarte is not untouchable. No player is untouchable.

 

[Hudson2]

Inciarte to me is a building block and is a table setter at the top of the lineup. How hard has it been to find a leadoff hitter since Furcal? It's been rough. I would have to be blown away to trade him at this point, especially since he's shown he can hit along with playing gold glove defense.

 

[nsacpi]

Inciarte to me is a building block and is a table setter at the top of the lineup. How hard has it been to find a leadoff hitter since Furcal? It's been rough. I would have to be blown away to trade him at this point, especially since he's shown he can hit along with playing gold glove defense.

Bourn was pretty good for a couple years. But I agree that having a couple guys at the top of the order like Inciarte and Albies is pretty important and that should be factored into our asking price for someone like Inciarte.

 

[chop2chip]

Inciarte to me is a building block and is a table setter at the top of the lineup. How hard has it been to find a leadoff hitter since Furcal? It's been rough. I would have to be blown away to trade him at this point, especially since he's shown he can hit along with playing gold glove defense.

I know we have had bad ones in the past, but Inciarte as a lead off hitter is... okay? Honestly, I would be a little disappointed if Acuna wouldn't as good as Inciarte within his first year (* as a hitter). Honestly, I think Dansby or Albies would both do better in that role.

 

[Russ2dollas]

I know we have had bad ones in the past, but Inciarte as a lead off hitter is... okay? Honestly, I would be a little disappointed if Acuna wouldn't as good as Inciarte within his first year. Honestly, I think Dansby or Albies would both do better in that role.

agree. He's overrated as a hitter on the board. He's good but we don't want him getting the most at bats.

He is probably going to be a 3-5 WAR guy, right? Mostly 3-4 WAR. His OBP is likely going to be in the 350 +/- 20 points, right? Not much power so the OPS isn't going to threaten 800.

If we were a good offensive team he'd be a guy that would hit 7 or 8 and we'd love his D like we do now.

I still don't see the fit to trade him. Who is the team that thinks they are 1 CF away? And does that team have anything to give up? The Braves are trying to win, so if they trade 3 WAR Ender now they are going to want to get a 2 WAR 3B back plus 2 more pieces....where is that?

 

[clvclv]

If the Stros offered Tucker, Whitley, Martes and Perez, I'd do it. I agree Inciarte is not untouchable. No player is untouchable.

Can't imagine they'd pay that price, but if they'd also pay one of Moran or Davis to be (at the very least) a potential platoon-partner for Rio until we can find out for sure what we've got in Riley and free-up Camargo as a super-utility guy that might be able to be the backup CF as well, I can't imagine you don't jerk their arm off. Then you arguably don't need to move Folty or any other arm. Of course, you might still decide to move an arm to Seattle for Lewis to be your right-handed thump.

I'll go so far as to say ALMOST "no player is untouchable", but I've gotta think Freeman, Acuna, Albies, and Swanson are as close to being that as it gets. Ender will cost a huge overpay, but he's just not the type of player that can be that when you can so readily "replace" his leadoff skills with Ozzie or Ronald and not wind up with a below-average defender in CF.

 

[TheBravos]

I think it would depend on how they feel about Pache and how fast they think he could move . Probably move Nick 2018, BUT if Pache starts tearing it up...he's the guy that could make Ender expendable after 2018 (or even at next trade deadline).

Ender is the type of player someone would over pay to acquire with his elite D and cheap contract. The ONLY way you move him is if it's an overpay. In that case...you would really need to consider pulling the trigger.

 

[Knucksie]

Under most circumstance. But not universally. The 1991 Braves jumped from last to first (65 wins to 94 wins) and had no home grown talent already past their prime. Guys that were brought in to supplement the team such as Pendelton, Bream, Liebrandt and Bellieard were all past their prime but were FA or trade acquisitions. The core guys were all 26 or younger, most MUCH younger.

A similar thing happened with the Astros when they went from 70 wins in 2014 to 86 wins in 2015.

I'm sure there are others.

If you want a dynasty or at least sustained success and high level play for a number of years, it's best that when you begin to be competitive you aren't saddled with players who are already in their decline, unless those players are not key core players and/or are close to being out from under team control and financial obligation.

Pendleton won '91 NL MVP Award. What did he do in St. Louis that was better?

 

[Horsehide Harry]

Pendleton won '91 NL MVP Award. What did he do in St. Louis that was better?

Not the point. I never said that he wasn't good. You can have good years, even MVP years, when you are past your physical baseball prime. And Pendleton was.

The point was that the 1991 Braves essentially had NO internal players over about 26 years of age except for the FA they brought in (unless you want to count Jeff Treadway). Dale Murphy was long gone. Nick Esasky was also gone. Zane Smith was gone. Jim Pressley was gone.

The idea that you CAN'T trade away all your ML veteran players (such as Freeman, Inciarte, Teheran) isn't an absolute. It has been done before and it has worked extremely well before.

 

[Knucksie]

Not the point. I never said that he wasn't good. You can have good years, even MVP years, when you are past your physical baseball prime. And Pendleton was.

Pendleton was at peak in Atlanta during 1991, and exceeded all realistic expectations. He signed as FA. That means every other team, who might've needed a 3B, passed on the opportunity. If we relied on The Numbers, his "surplus value" wouldn't have been too impressive by current standards.

The point was that the 1991 Braves essentially had NO internal players over about 26 years of age except for the FA they brought in (unless you want to count Jeff Treadway). Dale Murphy was long gone. Nick Esasky was also gone. Zane Smith was gone. Jim Pressley was gone.

Well, let's see. How many times here and at Scout have I recounted the rejected offers for Dale Murphy, which could have exponentially accelerated the late 80's rebuilding process? The Nick Esasky signing was no mistake (probably one of the greatest all time hitters at AFS...and a Marietta resident), but a fluke outcome. Not sure what that has to do with any of this topic though? Pressley? Are you serious? The dude banged doubles for the first half of '88 (?) then nothing after. Total stopgap. Zane Smith, interesting name to bring up. Somebody from the AJC staff should have asked Cox why he wasn't kept. If you don't know, research the return on that trade. To be fair, he didn't contribute much in Montreal, but was extremely effective in Pittsburgh.

Anyway, here's a news flash: the late '80's Braves teams were a laughingstock. In the "old days," we used to purchase magazines with predictions/prognostications for the upcoming seasons. Nobody pegged the Braves to be contenders. In fact, EVERYBODY picked them to be last for that year.

So, if we had internet message boards around at the time, you'd have been frustrated with the progress of Justice, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery. Stats would've been posted, indicating that Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were never going to be more be more than average major leaguers, at best.

The idea that you CAN'T trade away all your ML veteran players (such as Freeman, Inciarte, Teheran) isn't an absolute. It has been done before and it has worked extremely well before.

You think that the idea of trading away Freeman and Inciarte is a great one, well, just because you've posted it here 86 times. This board has posters who scour blogs all day long, visit Fangraphs hourly and owned fantasy league teams. That makes them geniuses!

 

[Horsehide Harry]

I think you missed the point entirely.

Pendelton was not an internal face of the franchise guy. He was a FA signed and brought in that worked out extremely well. He was passed his peak baseball years (age) unless you subscribe to the thought that he was a late bloomer. But, it really doesn't matter. It would be like the Braves signing a player in 2019, let's say Andruw McCutchen and having him play well enough to win an MVP at 32. That doesn't mean his abilities suddenly peaked. It means he had a good year and got more out of his abilities than he ever had before.

Not sure where you are going about the discussion about Murphy, Esasky, etc. My point was that none were around when the Braves got good. The Braves obviously held on to Murphy way, way passed the time he should have been traded and was a clear example of not understanding how to achieve best value with a player. The Braves were obviously rebuilding and Murphy's best value would have been as a trade piece at the time when a. the rebuild was undeniable and b. his value was highest. The Braves should have traded him after 1985 or 1986 when he was 29-30 and an annual MVP candidate. Instead they held onto him as a stand alone draw pulling in those loyal 5,000 fans each night in Fulton County. Having Murphy during that time did not change the record in any positive way. The years that he was a Brave from 85 on were wasted career years for him (and probably cost him the HoF) and wasted rebuild value for the Braves. Fortunately, Freeman was a little younger when this rebuild started and may actually still be useful when the team is good again. But he will be aged past his physical prime.

There's a difference between being your physical best and maximizing your talents. Pendelton was able to maximize his talents into an MVP even though he was past his baseball physical prime. Murphy's performance degraded significantly after his physical prime and really nosedived after he turned 30. We have to hope that Freeman takes the Pendelton path as opposed to the Murphy path.

As far as the comment about geniuses not sure really what you're getting at besides "get off my lawn!" This is a baseball discussion forum and I think the overall quality of posters is pretty high. I don't agree with everything everyone posts but I can respect most of it.

Many here equate just talking about the potential of trading Inciarte and Freeman as equivalent to discussing selling some of the children to slave traders. I like Inciarte and Freeman (and Teheran and others) but I am a fan of the TEAM. Whatever can be done to make the best TEAM should be done. If that involves trading one or more of players that I like then I am adult enough to accept that.

 

[Heyward]

Inciarte, Albies, soroka/allard, and Newcomb for a front line starter. I don't like it, but as The Weeknd sings, "I feel it coming"

Not even Coppy is this dumb.

And currently, no frontline SP is worth that much realistically.

 

[Enscheff]

Not even Coppy is this dumb.

And currently, no frontline SP is worth that much realistically.

Not only that, but any team selling an Ace with enough control to be worth that package will be a rebuilding team. A rebuilding team would not want current MLB players as the bulk of the return.

 

[Oklahomabrave]

Not only that, but any team selling an Ace with enough control to be worth that package will be a rebuilding team. A rebuilding team would not want current MLB players as the bulk of the return.

That must be why Coppy doesn't care about service time. He's just calling up

His favorites so rebuilding teams won't want them.

 

[NinersSBChamps]

Wait are people really advocating the Braves trade away Ender? He's a proven young MLB player with elite defense and is cost controlled for a few more years? People have a strange obsession with always wanting to add unproven prospects. I get it. You were fooled into thinking the Braves were going to be decent this season and think an infusion of prospects is the only way the Braves can compete again, but getting rid of quality MLB players will only push the timeline further away.

 

[Oklahomabrave]

I certainly wasn't advocating for trade. This was meant to be more of a thought exercise as we wait for the offseason. I was secretly hoping Enscheff would do a surplus value breakdown with an intersting proposal.

For instance, how would Happ stack up as a trade chip for Ender? Is he an overpay or not enough? I know the Cubs have inquired about Ender before.

 

[chop2chip]

I certainly wasn't advocating for trade. This was meant to be more of a thought exercise as we wait for the offseason. I was secretly hoping Enscheff would do a surplus value breakdown with an intersting proposal.

For instance, how would Happ stack up as a trade chip for Ender? Is he an overpay or not enough? I know the Cubs have inquired about Ender before.

The Cubs wouldn't make that trade, but Happ is absolutely the type of player I would want in an Ender trade. He could play any of the OF spots, 2B, and maybe fake 3B well enough to put Rio in a platoon. So in other words, you could play in LF with a platoon with Kemp against RH and against LHP he can move to third base against LH to sit Rio.