What would Frank have done?

H

Hawk

<B>Co-Owner, BravesCenter</B>
I think that the vast majority of us liked Frank Wren as the team's GM. He definitely had his strengths (trades) and weaknesses (FA signings), among others, but I have to believe that if the Braves hadn't stumbled in 2014 he'd still be sitting pretty in the catbird seat. Obviously, since his departure we've learned about the apparent torture he was in the Front Office -- running off scouts, making decisions without broad consultation, etc. For that reason, along with the decay of the farm system, I think as a result of his abrasive persona, I came around to support Wren's dismissal.

That being said; what if Wren had stayed? What if Fredi had been the one fired instead? Would the team still have traded Jason Heyward? Tommy LaStella? Be interested in trading Justin Upton? Evan Gattis?

Would he have been prepared to ride into the sunset with Upton/Heyward for draft picks? Or waited to attempt to move them at the deadline (if the team was performing poorly)? Or, gasp, extended one (or both)?

I don't think Frank was prepared to dismantle his team. I don't think he believed that pitching was an area he needed to address. I would pay money for his thoughts on Hart's moves.

This is not an attack on John Hart's method, just a reminder that there is more than one way to build a team.
 
It is kind of funny: I don't think I've heard word one from Wren after being fired. Normally fired GMs get an exit interview with a local media outlet or something.

Anyway, I think you're right. For good or for ill, I don't think there's any way Wren gives up on 2015. Heyward's still on the team, La Stella's still on the team and we would be fighting for a playoff spot, if for no other reason than the fact that Hypothetical Wren would likely be one crummy season away from getting the ax.

Fredi might have been fired.
 
Impossible to know what he would have done differently.

If the stories about him and Manno making it a difficult place to work and driving away some talented scouting/development personnel are true, then his being replaced is justified.

A GM should be judged by results. Wren's record is mixed, but I would say more positive than negative. On the negative side are the contracts (Uggla, Melvin, Lowe, Kawakami). The positive side was creating a young vibrant club after the awful moves in the last Schuerholz years. He inherited a pretty bad situation and turned things around very nicely. With respect to drafting and the state of the farm system, I'd say his performance was average. I know others see this as a very negative aspect of his period in office. But I've looked at the Wren drafts versus the Roy Clark drafts and as far as I can determine there is not much difference in the production of the players taken, especially when you account for where we were drafting and the number of early round picks. As for the farm system, I think you have to look at the amount of young talent in the majors to get a complete picture. The farm system is down at the moment (I don't think it is 29th as Hart says), but that is in large part due to the graduation of talent in recent years.
 
MadduxFanII said:
It is kind of funny: I don't think I've heard word one from Wren after being fired. Normally fired GMs get an exit interview with a local media outlet or something.
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I went all the way back to July/August trying to find an interview with Wren that might have provided some (any) insight into what his mindset was toward the composition of the team in 2015 and beyond. The last time I can find him speaking on record is the press conference announcing the Bonifacio trade. Makes me believe the second half of the season may have been very fractious time for the FO.

The timing of his dismissal, that Hart/Schuerholz/Cox press conference where Schuerholz basically publically begged Hart to take the job, all seem to go against the Braves traditional approach of very calculated and quick personnel changes.

Wren was Schuerholz's protege. I wonder if JS swung the ax there at the end, or if it came from McGuirk.
 
Count me among the minority who wasn't a real fan.

I agree with MFII that Heyward probably is still around. Not so sure on La Stella. He'd have had to fill the holes in the rotation and even with a buyers' market, he'd have had to fork over a good chunk of change to land two starters.

Where I differ from most is I don't think we were in a position to contend given our personnel and the holes in the rotation. I think a lot of things would have to go right (and this is true for Hart as well) for the team to be a legitimate contender in 2015. In the event we didn't contend with Wren at the helm, my guess is he'd have been let go at the end of the 2015 season (and I think MFII is right that Fredi probably gets the ax if Wren would have been retained), it wouldn't have been a surprise to see Fredi or a new manager get the ax as well. I was a bit surprised that they didn't bounce both Wren and Fredi to get a fresh start at both positions given that the team is going to be in transition.

Wren was interviewed in the past week or so about the Heyward deal. He didn't really say a whole lot other than the Braves did try to extend Heyward similar to Freeman.
 
Hard to say, but if Heyward wouldnt re-up, i think he tries to trade him.
 
50PoundHead said:
Count me among the minority who wasn't a real fan.

I agree with MFII that Heyward probably is still around. Not so sure on La Stella. He'd have had to fill the holes in the rotation and even with a buyers' market, he'd have had to fork over a good chunk of change to land two starters.

Where I differ from most is I don't think we were in a position to contend given our personnel and the holes in the rotation. I think a lot of things would have to go right (and this is true for Hart as well) for the team to be a legitimate contender in 2015. In the event we didn't contend with Wren at the helm, my guess is he'd have been let go at the end of the 2015 season (and I think MFII is right that Fredi probably gets the ax if Wren would have been retained), it wouldn't have been a surprise to see Fredi or a new manager get the ax as well. I was a bit surprised that they didn't bounce both Wren and Fredi to get a fresh start at both positions given that the team is going to be in transition.

Wren was interviewed in the past week or so about the Heyward deal. He didn't really say a whole lot other than the Braves did try to extend Heyward similar to Freeman.
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Link to that interview?
 
If Frank was here, I have reason to believe that most of the team would have remained intact with a few minor tweaks to make a run in 2015. It's safe to say we'd give BJ another chance to recover.

Also I think he would have identified a need (say offense at third base) and offered Sandoval a 6 year 175 million dollar deal on the first day of free agency putting us in a deeper hole going forward.
 
Hawk said:
I think that the vast majority of us liked Frank Wren as the team's GM. He definitely had his strengths (trades) and weaknesses (FA signings), among others, but I have to believe that if the Braves hadn't stumbled in 2014 he'd still be sitting pretty in the catbird seat. Obviously, since his departure we've learned about the apparent torture he was in the Front Office -- running off scouts, making decisions without broad consultation, etc. For that reason, along with the decay of the farm system, I think as a result of his abrasive persona, I came around to support Wren's dismissal.

That being said; what if Wren had stayed? What if Fredi had been the one fired instead? Would the team still have traded Jason Heyward? Tommy LaStella? Be interested in trading Justin Upton? Evan Gattis?

Would he have been prepared to ride into the sunset with Upton/Heyward for draft picks? Or waited to attempt to move them at the deadline (if the team was performing poorly)? Or, gasp, extended one (or both)?

I don't think Frank was prepared to dismantle his team. I don't think he believed that pitching was an area he needed to address. I would pay money for his thoughts on Hart's moves.

This is not an attack on John Hart's method, just a reminder that there is more than one way to build a team.
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If Wren didn't think we needed to address the rotation and terrible farm system then he should have been fired. We had three starters going into the offseason. At the very least Wren needed to get us two starters.

I think it would have been very difficult for Wren to fix our problems without trading one of Heyward/Upton. And then you trade one of those guys and you have a new hole to fix. How are you going to get guys if you don't have much money to spend or prospects to trade? I mean before they Heyward trade we weren't exactly rolling in the dough this offseason. I just don't think there was this realistic opportunity to without question be competitive next season.

And I was a very adament Wren supporter up until he locked us into Chris Johnson at third. After that move I was out.
 
weso1 said:
If Wren didn't think we needed to address the rotation and terrible farm system then he should have been fired. We had three starters going into the offseason. At the very least Wren needed to get us two starters.

I think it would have been very difficult for Wren to fix our problems without trading one of Heyward/Upton. And then you trade one of those guys and you have a new hole to fix. How are you going to get guys if you don't have much money to spend or prospects to trade? I mean before they Heyward trade we weren't exactly rolling in the dough this offseason. I just don't think there was this realistic opportunity to without question be competitive next season.

And I was a very adament Wren supporter up until he locked us into Chris Johnson at third. After that move I was out.
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Wren's goose was cooked the moment Beachy's UCL snapped.

He had unbelievably bad luck with FOUR TOR homegrown pitchers lost to injury at a young age in Hanson, Jurrjens, Medlen and Beachy. Had the economics of that situation been kinder, he could have outspent some mistakes. As it was, he almost did it. Finally caught up to him.

Thanks to his winning personality, they had the hatchet sharpened up for the moment the team underperformed the 90+ wins that had become the norm under him. More's the pity. He was a dick, but a good GM.
 
Wren was interviewed earlier this week on MLB Radio on Sirius. I think it was Monday during the Winter Meetings.

He didn't seem to be too opposed to the way the new regime had done things.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Wren's goose was cooked the moment Beachy's UCL snapped.

He had unbelievably bad luck with FOUR TOR homegrown pitchers lost to injury at a young age in Hanson, Jurrjens, Medlen and Beachy. Had the economics of that situation been kinder, he could have outspent some mistakes. As it was, he almost did it. Finally caught up to him.

Thanks to his winning personality, they had the hatchet sharpened up for the moment the team underperformed the 90+ wins that had become the norm under him. More's the pity. He was a dick, but a good GM.
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Those scenarios didn't help but the Uggla/BJ contracts meant that at least one head had to roll. Considering the fact that these were among the worst offensive seasons in history, 2 years in a row, an example had to be set. Maybe Wren was something of a scapegoat, especially as a Schuerholz protege. It was either him or Fredi, who was the Cox guy. Cox had more years with the org + the HOF induction this season. So, there was a sacrificial lamb.

Whey you look back on the history of the Braves, Ted Turner wanted to fashion himself as flamboyant. He embraced the "mouth of the South" meme and wanted to be a baby Steinbrenner. Back then, firing managers was the thing to do, even if it changed nothing. That's why Dave Bristol, Cox, Joe Torre, Eddie Haas, Bobby Wine, Chuck Tanner and Bobby Wine were axed in rapid succession. The GM role used to have some sort of continuity, even if there were more damaging decisions being made upstairs.
 
My guess not much would be different. Upton and/or Heyward had or have to go. He was like a lot of this board, always thought he was closer to a championship than what he was. Same could be said for JS though, still say we haven't had a legit shot at the trophy since before Glavine was a Met. And before ya jump me think about this, last NLCS trip 2001. Long time between drinks...
 
Knucksie said:
Those scenarios didn't help but the Uggla/BJ contracts meant that at least one head had to roll. Considering the fact that these were among the worst offensive seasons in history, 2 years in a row, an example had to be set. Maybe Wren was something of a scapegoat, especially as a Schuerholz protege. It was either him or Fredi, who was the Cox guy. Cox had more years with the org + the HOF induction this season. So, there was a sacrificial lamb.

Whey you look back on the history of the Braves, Ted Turner wanted to fashion himself as flamboyant. He embraced the "mouth of the South" meme and wanted to be a baby Steinbrenner. Back then, firing managers was the thing to do, even if it changed nothing. That's why Dave Bristol, Cox, Joe Torre, Eddie Haas, Bobby Wine, Chuck Tanner and Bobby Wine were axed in rapid succession. The GM role used to have some sort of continuity, even if there were more damaging decisions being made upstairs.
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Dreadful decisions, to be sure, but everybody's got some dead money. I really go back to those four guys crapping out. Two of them have normal careers and he's still in the saddle right now.

One other thing I find laughable is the insistence that our farm was barren. Bull****. Our farm was playing in Atlanta. Freeman, Heyward, Simmons, Kimbrel and friends were promoted at 20-21-22 instead of populating the high minors.
 
And by the way, Knucksie, I loved the Uggla trade and signing, didn't like BJ at all. Never did. He was a Cadillacker, as my dad would say. Of course none of us expected this.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
And by the way, Knucksie, I loved the Uggla trade and signing, didn't like BJ at all. Never did. He was a Cadillacker, as my dad would say. Of course none of us expected this.
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I didn't really like the BJ signing until Wren traded for Justin. Then I thought to myself, "Damn, this has the potential to turn out extremely well for the Braves." From a business perspective, especially. Two young brothers, an entirely African American outfield -- in the Atlanta demographic? Team control for years. Athletic first rounders with oodles of talent that seemed on the precipice of putting it all together (Justin more than BJ -- but BJ was not exactly bad prior to coming to Atlanta, either).

I would do it all over again because the manner in which it all fell apart still seems like the baddest of dreams.
 
Hawk said:
I didn't really like the BJ signing until Wren traded for Justin. Then I thought to myself, "Damn, this has the potential to turn out extremely well for the Braves." From a business perspective, especially. Two young brothers, an entirely African American outfield -- in the Atlanta demographic? Team control for years. Athletic first rounders with oodles of talent that seemed on the precipice of putting it all together (Justin more than BJ -- but BJ was not exactly bad prior to coming to Atlanta, either).

I would do it all over again because the manner in which it all fell apart still seems like the baddest of dreams.
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It sure did look good on paper.
 
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