What's worse for the GOP -- Passing the Tax Plan in current form or not?

[Runnin]

Both seem highly problematic. If they pass it the way it is the country will learn what's in it the hard way and a whole generation of low and middle class citizens will feel betrayed. If they don't pass it, they are gonna look almost as bad, but maybe only in the short term.

They are in a dilemma. They've backed themselves into a corner with seemingly no good options on the table.

 

[sturg33]

What is in it that people will learn the hard way?

 

[chop2chip]

What is in it that people will learn the hard way?

One thing is for sure. My wife and I are in grad school and that the reform would hurt us both. The changes include:

taxing individual students for tuition paid on their behalf by universities (PhD students get creamed here)

repealing the interest deduction for student loans borrowed for undergraduate or graduate studies (student loans become even harder to pay back)

repealing other tax credits that reduce the costs of post-secondary studies to individuals and families (not as big of deal to me, but again, I find it odd that government would focus on making it harder to go to school)

 

[jpx7]

One thing is for sure. My wife and I are in grad school and that the reform would hurt us both. The changes include:

taxing individual students for tuition paid on their behalf by universities (PhD students get creamed here)

repealing the interest deduction for student loans borrowed for undergraduate or graduate studies (student loans become even harder to pay back)

repealing other tax credits that reduce the costs of post-secondary studies to individuals and families (not as big of deal to me, but again, I find it odd that government would focus on making it harder to go to school)

Yea, it's odd, and likewise pretty certain to make a dent in my bottom-line. In principle, I don't mind paying taxes; in practice, I'm galled that I'll have to pay more so that corporations can get a cut.

 

[sturg33]

One thing is for sure. My wife and I are in grad school and that the reform would hurt us both. The changes include:

taxing individual students for tuition paid on their behalf by universities (PhD students get creamed here)

repealing the interest deduction for student loans borrowed for undergraduate or graduate studies (student loans become even harder to pay back)

repealing other tax credits that reduce the costs of post-secondary studies to individuals and families (not as big of deal to me, but again, I find it odd that government would focus on making it harder to go to school)

You didn't mention any benefits you and your wife may get.

taxing individual students for tuition paid on their behalf by universities (PhD students get creamed here)

Almost all income is taxed in this country. When my company gives me discounted stock, or achievers trip awards, or countless other benefits, it gets taxed as income

repealing the interest deduction for student loans borrowed for undergraduate or graduate studies (student loans become even harder to pay back)

I have never understood why I should have to subsidize people's loans

repealing other tax credits that reduce the costs of post-secondary studies to individuals and families (not as big of deal to me, but again, I find it odd that government would focus on making it harder to go to school)

Don't know much about this benefit but until we can do something about education costs in this country, incentivizing less people to take on crippling debt when there are cheap alternatives could be a good thing in the long term.

Oh, and to be clear, I odn't support ANY tax increases. But I see this plan as a net benefit to people and a step in the right direction. I wish we would talk about spending, but the left won't allow it and the right isn't serious about it. It's a shame

 

[chop2chip]

You didn't mention any benefits you and your wife may get.

Given my wife is in a PhD program and I in a heavy Master's program which both restrict our employment outside of the university, I would say those benefits are likely very limited. Besides, I was only answering what is "hard" about the tax reform from my personal perspective - grad student. I'm under no delusion that everyone is going to be a winner with tax reform.

Almost all income is taxed in this country. When my company gives me discounted stock, or achievers trip awards, or countless other benefits, it gets taxed as income

I'm specifically referring to tuition benefits, which heretofore hasn't been classified as income in this country.

Does your company tax you on the value of your training you receive at work? How would you feel if a new bill was passed that stated that your company had to assign a value for your work education, so the government could tax it? I am sure you wouldn't be happy about that.

I have never understood why I should have to subsidize people's loans

School is investment in human capital. Grad school is an investment in human capital with a greater ROI. You have the right to be upset about subsidizing my investment in myself - I don't hold that against you. Just understand that eliminating these subsidies will lead to less people pursuing graduate studies, which means a workforce where we have to increase immigration of foreign high-skilled labor to meet demand.

Don't know much about this benefit but until we can do something about education costs in this country, incentivizing less people to take on crippling debt when there are cheap alternatives could be a good thing in the long term.

That's one way of looking at it. Another is to tackle the "crippling debt" problem. I for one think we should provide greater ease of access to graduate school, not make it more difficult.

Oh, and to be clear, I odn't support ANY tax increases. But I see this plan as a net benefit to people and a step in the right direction. I wish we would talk about spending, but the left won't allow it and the right isn't serious about it. It's a shame

I want lower taxes and less spending too. But where we do spend, I want the highest possible returns which is in most cases the education system. That too needs a deep overhaul, but siphoning money from students isn't the answer in my opinion.

 

[sturg33]

Given my wife is in a PhD program and I in a heavy Master's program which both restrict our employment outside of the university, I would say those benefits are likely very limited. Besides, I was only answering what is "hard" about the tax reform from my personal perspective - grad student. I'm under no delusion that everyone is going to be a winner with tax reform.

Fair enough and I appreciate the response. I'd say you're in a unique situation, and not something that should be applied broadly to the issues of this tax bill

I'm specifically referring to tuition benefits, which heretofore hasn't been classified as income in this country.

Does your company tax you on the value of your training you receive at work? How would you feel if a new bill was passed that stated that your company had to assign a value for your work education, so the government could tax it? I am sure you wouldn't be happy about that.

No - bc the training my company gives me is to benefit the company itself. Just like them giving me a computer.

However, if my company offers to pay for my MBA, I'd be comfortable with that money being considered income

School is investment in human capital. Grad school is an investment in human capital with a greater ROI. You have the right to be upset about subsidizing my investment in myself - I don't hold that against you. Just understand that eliminating these subsidies will lead to less people pursuing graduate studies, which means a workforce where we have to increase immigration of foreign high-skilled labor to meet demand.

Sure. But you still took out a loan knowing the costs and the interest. It's your responsibility to pay that loan back, not mine. I understand your point - I just don't agree that I should be forced to subsidize anything else.

That's one way of looking at it. Another is to tackle the "crippling debt" problem. I for one think we should provide greater ease of access to graduate school, not make it more difficult.

Providing greater ease to get into higher ed is the reason the costs have gone up so exorbitantly. I can't speak for graduate school though as I don't know as much about the subsidization model. But my view on undergrad is the government forcing ease of access has created a massive bubble and much bigger long term problem

I want lower taxes and less spending too. But where we do spend, I want the highest possible returns which is in most cases the education system. That too needs a deep overhaul, but siphoning money from students isn't the answer in my opinion.

I'd argue that our education system continues to get worse and the ROI continues to go down for higher education. If we're going to invest, I'd much rather invest in technology

 

[chop2chip]

Fair enough and I appreciate the response. I'd say you're in a unique situation, and not something that should be applied broadly to the issues of this tax bill

That's fair, though I would argue that its specific enough that the tax reform is directly confronting it. Basically, this tax reform could essentially be the same with or without these parts.

No - bc the training my company gives me is to benefit the company itself. Just like them giving me a computer.

However, if my company offers to pay for my MBA, I'd be comfortable with that money being considered income

(1) Universities depend very strongly on PhD students. I'll give it to you that my masters degree is very much a one way street, but you can't operate a R-1 university without PhD students to teach, grade, and research. PhD students can't teach, grade, or research without the education they get from their classes which is paid with by tuition.

(2) Your training has personal value aside from the value the company receives. It's the reason why you can leave your job after a couple years experience for another job with a higher salary. Given that, I still think my hypothetical holds up

Sure. But you still took out a loan knowing the costs and the interest. It's your responsibility to pay that loan back, not mine. I understand your point - I just don't agree that I should be forced to subsidize anything else.

I understood the costs under the assumption that my interest payments would be subsidized.

I don't see how your complaint is any more or less valid than someone complaining about corporations receiving tax benefits. Its the same process. My decision to go to school means I'll earn more money in future years which means I'll pay more in taxes. Taxpayers should be glad that I took on these loans.

Providing greater ease to get into higher ed is the reason the costs have gone up so exorbitantly. I can't speak for graduate school though as I don't know as much about the subsidization model. But my view on undergrad is the government forcing ease of access has created a massive bubble and much bigger long term problem

You and I share these same concerns. I think we need a complete overhaul of how universities issue degrees.

Graduate school is different beast though, in my opinion, there aren't as many "useless" degrees that don't have strong ROIs. This is why school justify charging graduation tuition rates that can be five times as high as undergraduate tuition because they know students understand that these degrees are generally worth it

I'd argue that our education system continues to get worse and the ROI continues to go down for higher education. If we're going to invest, I'd much rather invest in technology

Chicken and the egg, imo.

Human capital invents technology, technology enables higher returns in human capital, better human technology invents better technology - rinse, repeat.

Anecdotally speaking, I studied economics and math in undergrad and worked as a consultant for a couple of years before I went back to school to learn data science and machine learning. Personally, I think our society would be better off if it paid others do what I did, or to go to med school (lower health care costs), learn accounting, finance, computer science, etc.

 

[57Brave]

Ben Wikler‏Verified account @benwikler
59m59 minutes ago
Replying to @benwikler

How new plan works:
1. GOP ends Obamacare’s individual mandate
2. Fewer healthy people buy insurance
3. Premiums shoot up for everyone else
4. Millions can’t afford insurance who want it
5. Govt saves $ on subsidies
6. $ goes to corporations & rich people


good lord if this congress renames a library count on some form of repeal of ACA.
No, people like this and want this ---- improvement would be Medicare for all. Not cutting people