Who should our next manager be?

How many great players have managed in MLB? I can't think of many. A lot of guys in the old days, but not a lot more recently.

Sandberg, Trammell, Frank Robinson. Pete Rose, I guess. Tony Perez is in the Hall. I can't think of a lot, though I'm sure there are more.
 
Julio3000 said:
How many great players have managed in MLB? I can't think of many. A lot of guys in the old days, but not a lot more recently.

Sandberg, Trammell, Frank Robinson. Pete Rose, I guess. Tony Perez is in the Hall. I can't think of a lot, though I'm sure there are more.
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In the modern game, add Ted Williams and Yogi Berra. I've seen lists that have Red Schoendienst, and I suppose he is, if not great, a near-great.
 
When I see comments from die hard sabermetric fans that Bruce Bochy isn't a good manager and Joe Maddon is in a tier all to himself, it really cracks me up.

I would take Bruce Bochy over any active manager not named Buck Showalter.
 
50PoundHead said:
Great players seldom make good managers. There are exceptions, but I don't think Chipper is the guy for the job.
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I personally want no part of Chipper as Manager. You don't have to look far to see how badly that will ultimately turn out. The vast majority of Managers are hired to eventually be fired. Can you imagine the uproar if a new regime took over and was trying to turn a bad team he was managing around??? There would be riots.

The White Sox are dealing with that situation with Robin Ventura right now.
 
clvclv said:
I personally want no part of Chipper as Manager. You don't have to look far to see how badly that will ultimately turn out. The vast majority of Managers are hired to eventually be fired. Can you imagine the uproar if a new regime took over and was trying to turn a bad team he was managing around??? There would be riots.

The White Sox are dealing with that situation with Robin Ventura right now.
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A lot easier to fire David Ross than Chipper Jones.
 
KB21 said:
When I see comments from die hard sabermetric fans that Bruce Bochy isn't a good manager and Joe Maddon is in a tier all to himself, it really cracks me up.

I would take Bruce Bochy over any active manager not named Buck Showalter.
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when I see quotes by anti-saber fans about how wonderful Bochy and Showalter are, it really cracks me up. It tells me they don't know much of anything about baseball
 
bravos4evr said:
when I see quotes by anti-saber fans about how wonderful Bochy and Showalter are, it really cracks me up. It tells me they don't know much of anything about baseball
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That's what makes non-statheads wonder if numbers guys actually know much about the game. Bochy's the 4th Manager in the history of the game to win 700+ games with two different organizations and has a career .583 winning percentage in the postseason with 3 World Championships. Maddon's regular season winning percentage is slightly better than Showalter's (.530 to .519), but Buck's won 430 more games. If Maddon's so great, why is he 17-22 in the postseason?

I like Joe, and would love to see him running the Braves games from our dugout, but have no clue which of his numbers make him head and shoulders better than either one of those guys.
 
clvclv said:
That's what makes non-statheads wonder if numbers guys actually know much about the game. Bochy's the 4th Manager in the history of the game to win 700+ games with two different organizations and has a career .583 winning percentage in the postseason with 3 World Championships. Maddon's regular season winning percentage is slightly better than Showalter's (.530 to .519), but Buck's won 430 more games. If Maddon's so great, why is he 17-22 in the postseason?

I like Joe, and would love to see him running the Braves games from our dugout, but have no clue which of his numbers make him head and shoulders better than either one of those guys.
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Bobby Cox is apparently a terrible manager as well.

What's interesting is that there was a saber study done on this back in 2012. How many managers gets more wins than expected out of their teams?

http://darowski.com/hall-of-wwar/expectancy/

Looky there!

#1 -- Mike Sciosia
#3 -- Bruce Bochy
#4 -- Bobby Cox

Joe Maddon down around the bottom at -22 wins above expectancy. Hey, but he manages games the way saber guys want him to, so he's the best.
 
KB21 said:
Bobby Cox is apparently a terrible manager as well.

What's interesting is that there was a saber study done on this back in 2012. How many managers gets more wins than expected out of their teams?

http://darowski.com/hall-of-wwar/expectancy/

Looky there!

#1 -- Mike Sciosia
#3 -- Bruce Bochy
#4 -- Bobby Cox

Joe Maddon down around the bottom at -22 wins above expectancy. Hey, but he manages games the way saber guys want him to, so he's the best.
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lol, cherry picking. you weren't very smart on the talking chop board and you are still a retard on here. go yell at clouds somewhere else you ignorant old fool
 
bravos4evr said:
lol, cherry picking. you weren't very smart on the talking chop board and you are still a retard on here. go yell at clouds somewhere else you ignorant old fool
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OK - so he "cherry-picked" the guys at the top of that list. Showalter happens to be 6 spots higher than Maddon on that list, and there are well more than 125 others higher - including such great minds as Fredi (at #24, no less), Russ Nixon, Ned Yost, Davey Johnson, Whitey Herzog, Ozzie Guillen, Larry Bowa, and Joe Girardi among others Which ones of those should he have used instead?
 
clvclv said:
OK - so he "cherry-picked" the guys at the top of that list. Showalter happens to be 6 spots higher than Maddon on that list, and there are well more than 125 others higher - including such great minds as Fredi (at #24, no less), Russ Nixon, Ned Yost, Davey Johnson, Whitey Herzog, Ozzie Guillen, Larry Bowa, and Joe Girardi among others Which ones of those should he have used instead?
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he cherry picked that list. team record being attributed to managers is intellectually dishonest. Bobby Cox was ag reat motivator and 'player' mgr" but he was awful with tactics and strategy. he got out managed in the playoffs often. made suspect lineups, tended to put too much emphasis on veterans and was not the best with his bullpens either. Most mgrs use an antiquated method for lineup construction and bullpen usage . Just picking win/loss record as an example of who was good or bad makes it seem like all the credit goes to the mgr, and this just isn't true.

traditional stat people need to come to terms with their 18th century thinking and evolve or die. the game is moving on, if you wan't t keep up, best jump on and ride with it, or sit there and pout about "those mean old saber nerds". I am not going on the defensive anymore, I am pushing back and going on the offensive. But, instead of being dicks, maybe traditional stat people could either shut their mouths or try to ...oh I dunno, LEARN SOMETHING ****ING NEW FOR ONCE IN THEIR IGNORANT LIVES? magical thinking is bad for mankind be it religion pseudoscience, supernatural beliefs or wtvr, time to grow up people. science and math are things you can prove, confirmation bias and magical thinking make the world worse. don't make the world worse.
 
clvclv said:
I like Joe, and would love to see him running the Braves games from our dugout, but have no clue which of his numbers make him head and shoulders better than either one of those guys.
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BOchy is arguably the best manager in baseball right now. Maddon vs. Bochy is a tough battle. Remember that Maddon did almost all of his work for Tampa Bay, a low budget team who regularly traded players. He's with the Cubs now, if he gets a WS win in the next 2-3 years he'll be in the discussion with Bochy.

Showalter is a great manager as well. He has some flaws, but he is really good at maximizing his talent. What he did with Baltimore 2 years ago was a damned miracle.
 
50PoundHead said:
Great players seldom make good managers. There are exceptions, but I don't think Chipper is the guy for the job.
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Torre was a pretty great player. FWIW, I liked him as Braves mgr, but first thing he said during his HOF induction speech was that he was there because of the NY Yankees.
 
Knucksie said:
Torre was a pretty great player. FWIW, I liked him as Braves mgr, but first thing he said during his HOF induction speech was that he was there because of the NY Yankees.
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Overlooked him. Surprisingly, he wasn't on a list I used as a reference. One could argue Bob Lemon was a great player as well.
 
bravos4evr said:
when I see quotes by anti-saber fans about how wonderful Bochy and Showalter are, it really cracks me up. It tells me they don't know much of anything about baseball
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Bochy and Showalter are both really good. Just like how Maddon is really good.

In baseball, just get me a guy whom the players play hard under (i.e. not Valentine) and shows some willingness to think outside the box (i.e. not Sciosia) and I'm content. Everything else is just personal preference.
 
I think they are good too, it's just annoying how some people just hand wave away saber stuff and make appeals to authority towards other managers they assume are not. (even tho there is evidence that Bochy is pretty metrics oriented) I was just responding in kind to a silly post that was designed to be smug and dickish for no other reason than to dismiss modern statistics.
 
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