Why Do Liberals Hate 'American Sniper'?

The atomic bomb was the right choice then and it would be now.

The invasion force for Japan would be a lot bigger than the one on DDay and Japan was a lot more fortified. Estimates show that America would had lost at least 100,000 troops when they went into Japan.

So lose 100,000 of your own soldiers or drop 2 bombs?

Even In that scenario today, you do it 100% of the time.

Just curious, do you contend (or anyone else here for that matter), that the atomic bomb(s) were any higher than #3 on the reasons why the Japanese surrendered?

I'd like to get everyone's take on this one if you all don't mind and can spare the time.
 
Just curious, do you contend (or anyone else here for that matter), that the atomic bomb(s) were any higher than #3 on the reasons why the Japanese surrendered?

I'd like to get everyone's take on this one if you all don't mind and can spare the time.

Even though I live here, I'm no historian on the subject. But I think the overwhelming power and destruction of the bombs made it easy for Hirohito to surrender. And I disagree with the idea that the Japanese were "dug in" and could have defended the island indefinitely. There were no tunnels or strong military forts. The country is extremely mountainous with the flat lands used for rice paddies. They could've run for the hills but the few urban areas were tinderboxes and easily torched. The fire bombing of Tokyo was almost as effective as the atomic bombs. The B29 bombing was extremely effective in starting fires that leveled everything. There was literally very little to defend or fight from. Their attacking army never prepared for that outcome. The Japanese were starving and their means to continue fighting was all but finished. I believe once the military was defeated a surrender would've come soon.

I don't say that because I think Truman's use of the bombs was heartless and impatient, even though it does seem that way now. He wanted to end the war as soon as he could. But the notion that Japan would've fought down to the last man like they did on Midway and Iwo Jima is very wrong, imho.
 
I have read the dropping of the A-Bombs was more a statement aimed at the USSR than the Japanese.
Once the battle for Europe was completed the next battle-politic was the Asian Theater

Thoughts on that?
 
Even though I live here, I'm no historian on the subject. But I think the overwhelming power and destruction of the bombs made it easy for Hirohito to surrender. And I disagree with the idea that the Japanese were "dug in" and could have defended the island indefinitely. There were no tunnels or strong military forts. The country is extremely mountainous with the flat lands used for rice paddies. They could've run for the hills but the few urban areas were tinderboxes and easily torched. The fire bombing of Tokyo was almost as effective as the atomic bombs. The B29 bombing was extremely effective in starting fires that leveled everything. There was literally very little to defend or fight from. Their attacking army never prepared for that outcome. The Japanese were starving and their means to continue fighting was all but finished. I believe once the military was defeated a surrender would've come soon.

I don't say that because I think Truman's use of the bombs was heartless and impatient, even though it does seem that way now. He wanted to end the war as soon as he could. But the notion that Japan would've fought down to the last man like they did on Midway and Iwo Jima is very wrong, imho.

First let me say (since I didn't chime in on this one a couple of days ago) I don't "feel good" or "celebrate" when we kill a bad person or persons. It doesn't make me "giddy" but I don't think it needs to. I think both we and the world were/better off now than before we killed bin Laden. I don't think it ever needs to come down to celebrating just because we kill someone, even someone who, as we say down south, "needed killing". We do these things (hopefully) because the MUST be done, not because "hey, it might be fun". That's called being an adult and being in charge.

The Japanese started the war in the Pacific, they bomb indiscriminately, killed men, women, and children (at least 250,000 civilians in Nanking alone back in 1937). Just that event alone pretty much takes away any moral "high ground" they might claim to have about the US dropping its newly developed atomic bomb. With that said, as Runnin' correctly states our incendiary bombing of Tokyo caused as many casualties as either Fat Man or Little Boy, just without the radiation factor. Runnin' is also correct in that the bombs had a great impact on Hirohito than they did on any/all of the Japanese warlords, who would have been more than happy to die in an American invasion, especially after taking as many of the Japanese people with them as possible.

Steak Sauce also brings up a good point about the bombs and the "Russian Factor". Truman, when told of the successful testing of the first bomb in the New Mexico desert, decided to share the news with Stalin (he had already told Churchill) and when told of the successful testing of the world's first atomic bomb, Stalin's expression did not change, AT ALL. What does that tell us?

More later, including on the "Russian Factor".
 
First let me say (since I didn't chime in on this one a couple of days ago) I don't "feel good" or "celebrate" when we kill a bad person or persons. It doesn't make me "giddy" but I don't think it needs to. I think both we and the world were/better off now than before we killed bin Laden. I don't think it ever needs to come down to celebrating just because we kill someone, even someone who, as we say down south, "needed killing". We do these things (hopefully) because the MUST be done, not because "hey, it might be fun". That's called being an adult and being in charge.

The Japanese started the war in the Pacific, they bomb indiscriminately, killed men, women, and children (at least 250,000 civilians in Nanking alone back in 1937). Just that event alone pretty much takes away any moral "high ground" they might claim to have about the US dropping its newly developed atomic bomb. With that said, as Runnin' correctly states our incendiary bombing of Tokyo caused as many casualties as either Fat Man or Little Boy, just without the radiation factor. Runnin' is also correct in that the bombs had a great impact on Hirohito than they did on any/all of the Japanese warlords, who would have been more than happy to die in an American invasion, especially after taking as many of the Japanese people with them as possible.

Steak Sauce also brings up a good point about the bombs and the "Russian Factor". Truman, when told of the successful testing of the first bomb in the New Mexico desert, decided to share the news with Stalin (he had already told Churchill) and when told of the successful testing of the world's first atomic bomb, Stalin's expression did not change, AT ALL. What does that tell us?

More later, including on the "Russian Factor".

Well said. I'm not a WWII expert by any means, but when your secular leader is also your religious leader, populations will do all kinds of crazy things and there were many Japanese that would have been perfectly happy to fight to the last human against the Western invaders. In some sense, it's not that much different than some strains of Islam in that the secular and the sacred are mixed.

Debates on use of the atomic bomb have gone on since Truman's decision. In some sense, someone had to drop an atomic bomb at some point in time to display its terrible power in real terms. It just happened to be us being the dropper and Japan being the dropee.

As per the whole war question, I hate war period. But when we are in a war, I think the talents of professional soldiers should be appreciated. For some of us who are older and had to live through the draft, it can probably be viewed through a slightly different prism. I had friends who were drafted and they told me that the first day of basic training, the DI would tell them "In 30 days, I will have you prepared to kill another human being." One particular friend who relayed that story to me told me that he laughed under his breath and thought "Yeah right" when the DI said that. But sure enough, 30 days later he was ready to put his life on the line and do what was deemed necessary. He didn't say how the Army got him to that point and he stressed that after being out of the service for a couple of years, he was back to where he was mentally prior to his induction into the Army. But I always have found that interesting.

I don't praise Chris Kyle. I don't necessarily praise what he did or who he was. But war is messy and the talents of Chris Kyle and others are necessary if a country is to be successful in war. It pretty much ends there for me in terms of combat.
 
Well said. I'm not a WWII expert by any means, but when your secular leader is also your religious leader, populations will do all kinds of crazy things and there were many Japanese that would have been perfectly happy to fight to the last human against the Western invaders. In some sense, it's not that much different than some strains of Islam in that the secular and the sacred are mixed. Well in the case of the Japanese they actually though he not only represented God, that he WAS a god, I just don't see any good or easy solutions coming to anything when that's your starting point.

Debates on use of the atomic bomb have gone on since Truman's decision. In some sense, someone had to drop an atomic bomb at some point in time to display its terrible power in real terms. It just happened to be us being the dropper and Japan being the dropee. Yeah, I just think the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan as being a bit overblown as far as importance, both for them and us. I don't see us being any more "to blame" for dropping that bomb, which was a terrible thing to be sure, than the big bomber raids over Tokyo the month before we hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We should also talk about the big bombing raids on German cities like Dresden which had little or no strategic value, but just another city to destroy to damage their "will to fight". Those raids actually killed more people and caused more damage than Fat Man or Little Boy, it's just that the death and destruction were done by dropping one bomb at a time as opposed to hundreds/thousands in one big thread. And of course the lingering radiation stuff which I think is a more legitimate claim than the other stuff. Plus the big ominous mushroom cloud.

As per the whole war question, I hate war period. But when we are in a war, I think the talents of professional soldiers should be appreciated. For some of us who are older and had to live through the draft, it can probably be viewed through a slightly different prism. I had friends who were drafted and they told me that the first day of basic training, the DI would tell them "In 30 days, I will have you prepared to kill another human being." One particular friend who relayed that story to me told me that he laughed under his breath and thought "Yeah right" when the DI said that. But sure enough, 30 days later he was ready to put his life on the line and do what was deemed necessary. He didn't say how the Army got him to that point and he stressed that after being out of the service for a couple of years, he was back to where he was mentally prior to his induction into the Army. But I always have found that interesting. I don't think Americans should WANT to kill people, in war you have to do stuff like that, it's absolutely inevitable, but I don't think a total disdain for human life should be something we aspire to, otherwise we should get the swastika tattoos and be done with it. War is terrible, it needs to be terrible. It has to be terrible and we should not ever go into one unless we have to. Then if and when we have to go to war we should strive to do such a good, thorough and utter "ass kicking" that nobody else should ever be stupid enough to provoke us again To me that sort of thing will come a lot closer to producing a lasting peace than all the big talk and "3 Stooges/Marx Brothers planning and execution skills" in the world. TR said it best I think, speak softly and carry a big stick. Most big talkers only talk big because their stick is tiny. I am essentially a pacifist, a "live and let live" kind of guy, if you'll let me be. If you push me to that point where I can't be a pacifist anymore I basically become a "kill 'em all and let God sort them out" kind of guy.

I don't praise Chris Kyle. I don't necessarily praise what he did or who he was. But war is messy and the talents of Chris Kyle and others are necessary if a country is to be successful in war. It pretty much ends there for me in terms of combat. I've heard a lot of stuff about Kyle, his story, etc., I don't know the whole story and don't really plan on reading about it. I don't know why everybody seems to have to over think the whole thing anyway. He was a sniper, he had a story, they made it into a movie. If you don't like those kinds of movies don't go, if you do, go and watch the movie and judge the movie for what it is/isn't. If Kyle turns out to be a great big fraud or whatever he sure wouldn't be the first one not will he be the last one, if they movie mirrors his life fine, if it doesn't that sure isn't the first or last time Hollywood smeared the lines on that sort of thing either. I honor Kyle's service just as I honor all of our brave servicemen's service. As for Michael Moore, if I understand his actual story correctly, he said his uncle was killed by a sniper in WW2 and that his dad hated the sniper who killed his brother and called that man a "coward". Is that pretty close? If so I don't blame Michael Moore's dad for feeling that way, I don't agree with him, but if I had a brother killed, even in war I'd probably have hard feelings. If some of those criticizing him weren't getting political brownie points for criticizing him changes are most of them wouldn't be doing it, because if Moore wasn't a good target because of his politics (does his size not make him enough of a target for you people) then they wouldn't even know or care who he was or what he or his father thought. To me, just this past 2 or 3 sentences is actually more coverage than Moore deserves in any given year.

 
" because if Moore wasn't a good target because of his politics (does his size not make him enough of a target for you people) then they wouldn't even know... "


",,,I wouldn't go so far ... "
 
dropping the bombs was to show Russia what we had and for them to not to get any ideas

more than anything else
 
if i have the story right the Russians were preparing to invade western Japan

is that right ???

Western and/or Northern Japan. The Japanese had kept their treaty with the USSR and did not attack them when Hitler was at the gates of Moscow and Leningrad in 1941 (and the Soviets were VERY vulnerable) so naturally they assumed the Russians would treat them right when they were up against it in the Summer of 1945 and naturally Stalin proved his friendship and trustworthy nature by invading Manchuria (conquered and occupied by Japan in 1931) and gobbled up all territory held by Japan on the continent of Asia.

Japan knew if they didn't surrender to us (an unthinkable act for them) they would be invaded by us and the Russians and wind up being partitioned like Vietnam and Korea was after the war. This was an even worse choice for them so between the threat the Russians posed and the fact that we finally wised up and let them keep their emperor (this was the other main reason they surrendered) they went ahead and gave up. This did not please the warlords though who wanted to literally fight until the end.

Did you guys know the Japanese had retrofit torpedoes with bicycle handlebars and were going to put their kids on them and have them steer the torpedoes out into the US warships when we got close enough? Does this sound like a country wanting to surrender? I love Truman's comment about "when Hirohito surrenders to MacArthur, it'll be one divinity surrendering to another. lol

As for the bomb being a message to the Russians, I can't promise/prove that but it makes sense. We had finally realized that Stalin couldn't be trusted any farther than I could throw a T34 tank.

You guys never answered my other question, when Truman told Stalin about our successful test of the atomic bomb in New Mexico, Stalin's expression did not change at all. What did that tell us?
 
" because if Moore wasn't a good target because of his politics (does his size not make him enough of a target for you people) then they wouldn't even know... "


",,,I wouldn't go so far ... "

You know, a Royale with cheese would sure go good right about now. :icon_biggrin:
 
one divinity surrendering to another. lol

As for the bomb being a message to the Russians, I can't promise/prove that but it makes sense. We had finally realized that Stalin couldn't be trusted any farther than I could throw a T34 tank.

You guys never answered my other question, when Truman told Stalin about our successful test of the atomic bomb in New Mexico, Stalin's expression did not change at all. What did that tell us?

??

Do tell
 
??

Do tell

Steak Sauce, are you talking about Stalin's reaction to the news about us successfully testing the world's first atomic bomb, when Truman told him about it at Potsdam? If so, here's the answer. He just stood there, totally stone faced, his expression was said to not change at all. None whatsoever. What would you think if you told someone something THAT epic and their expression didn't change AT ALL?
 
dropping the bombs was to show Russia what we had and for them to not to get any ideas

more than anything else

To the point and correct, corroborating Okie's point who I think is a History teacher. I learned that the bombs were used for several reasons in history class at the University of Iowa and this was one of the 'main' reasons because Stalin treated his soldiers like cannon fodder, conscripts, mindless soldiers to die for him and Mother Russia.
 
Steak Sauce, are you talking about Stalin's reaction to the news about us successfully testing the world's first atomic bomb, when Truman told him about it at Potsdam? If so, here's the answer. He just stood there, totally stone faced, his expression was said to not change at all. None whatsoever. What would you think if you told someone something THAT epic and their expression didn't change AT ALL?
He knew it was bad but was trying to ascertain just how bad.
 
He knew it was bad but was trying to ascertain just how bad.

You guys are getting close and yes Stalin considered all human life to be something put here for him to use and abuse (like using a magnifying glass to torch bugs) but I think ultimately you guys are over thinking this one. The answer is actually way simpler than what you've said to this point. Want to try again. I tell you something EPIC and your facial expression doesn't change at all. Why would that be the case?
 
The Soviets had several spies inside the Manhattan Project.

Indeed they did.

rosenberg.jpg
 
Indeed they did.

rosenberg.jpg

Bingo Gentlemen!!! Bravo!! Stalin didn't change his expression because he already knew about it, in fact he probably knew more about it than Truman did at that time. Stalin was one of the most paranoid individuals EVER and he had spies literally everywhere. Ironically he was notorious for having them everywhere and getting information from them about just about everything, but he quite often disbelieved them or flat out ignored them. I guess he believed these spies this time, huh?
 
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