Winter Meetings Thread

Horsehide Harry said:
The problem is that this is so, so premature.

Even IF you create a rotation of: Sale, Teheran, Folty, Dickey, Colon

The club will STILL have: Johnson as closer OR Viz as closer; and essentially huge questions about the rest of the pen.

A mediocre offense AT BEST with a more likely outcome of at least some regression from the guys who had career years and some age degradation from Markakis, Kemp, Flowers.

I mean, it's really crazy to take this kind of gamble that 2017 will actually mean anything. The whole idea of the rebuild was to get younger and bring in talent stockpiles for the day when you CAN have a legit chance to be good. In 2019, 2020, if you make the Sale trade (unless you just rape the ChiSox which won't happen) you will have an ancient Kemp, no Markakis, a Freeman past his prime, an Inciarte closing on FA, a Swanson rolling hard through FA raises and a Sale and Teheran being expensive and soon on their way out EVEN IF THEY REMAIN AS GOOD AS EXPECTED. ANd you will have spent a huge portion of your young talent collateral on a guy, while good, in reality helped you win nothing.

Making trades like this is an almost certain pay to franchise purgatory and ultimately another rebuild.
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The Braves trading for Sale is equally as stupid as the DBacks signing Greinke. Both teams overestimated how good they were, and dumped too many assets into a single star player. The DBacks used cash, while the Braves will use prospect assets, but it's the same exact mistake.
 
Albies is expendable IF Coppy signed an impact bat otherwise trading for Sale is useless.

Hard to see a deal happen without Albies in the deal but Folty, Allard, and Albies is overkill.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
The problem is that this is so, so premature.

Even IF you create a rotation of: Sale, Teheran, Folty, Dickey, Colon

The club will STILL have: Johnson as closer OR Viz as closer; and essentially huge questions about the rest of the pen.

A mediocre offense AT BEST with a more likely outcome of at least some regression from the guys who had career years and some age degradation from Markakis, Kemp, Flowers.

I mean, it's really crazy to take this kind of gamble that 2017 will actually mean anything. The whole idea of the rebuild was to get younger and bring in talent stockpiles for the day when you CAN have a legit chance to be good. In 2019, 2020, if you make the Sale trade (unless you just rape the ChiSox which won't happen) you will have an ancient Kemp, no Markakis, a Freeman past his prime, an Inciarte closing on FA, a Swanson rolling hard through FA raises and a Sale and Teheran being expensive and soon on their way out EVEN IF THEY REMAIN AS GOOD AS EXPECTED. ANd you will have spent a huge portion of your young talent collateral on a guy, while good, in reality helped you win nothing.

Making trades like this is an almost certain pay to franchise purgatory and ultimately another rebuild.
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I agree with all of this. I don't necessarily think trading a bunch of prospects for Sale is a bad move on its own, but in the context of where I think we are in the rebuild, it doesn't make sense. I'm even more bullish on our own, but think our offense is nowhere near good enough to compete.
 
Any trade for Sale is going to hurt. If it happens we will all hate what we gave up and White Sox fans will be pissed they didnt get Moncada and Benintindi. I dont really want to trade Folty but where does he pitch if we trade for Sale? Would we just turn around and flip Jaime Garcia? The White Sox are going to want ML ready talent. Mallex fills a big hole for them in CF and we have Dustin Peterson starting the year at AAA. Maybe the White Sox prefer Peterson instead. Albies seems like a foregone conclusion because SS is such a coveted position. Ruiz could replace Frazier whenever he leaves. I included Allard because I worry about his future ability to stay healthy. Being a key piece in trading for Sale could be the most value he ever produces.
 
Just say no to trading Allard and Folty.

I'd offer them Albies, Newcomb, Mallex, Sims, & Ruiz for Sale and Frazier and tell the White Sox take it or leave it.

To me that'd be fair. We get our ace and a 3b. They get two prime positional prospects and a potential top of the rotation starter in Newcomb, a promising young pitcher that has upside as either a starter or reliever in Sims, and a quality prospect in Ruiz along with salary relief.
 
I am so over this rumor. I don't want to pay the price. Just quit f'ing around coppi and drop out. Maybe you are raising the price to keep the gnats out I don't know. But just don't trade the house for one player. The system is not ready yet.
 
mqt said:
I agree with all of this. I don't necessarily think trading a bunch of prospects for Sale is a bad move on its own, but in the context of where I think we are in the rebuild, it doesn't make sense. I'm even more bullish on our own, but think our offense is nowhere near good enough to compete.
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Why is a trade for sale just about 2017? He's under control for 3 seasons. Even if this year is a bit early how often do you have a chance to land someone like him?
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
Just say no to trading Allard and Folty.

I'd offer them Albies, Newcomb, Mallex, Sims, & Ruiz for Sale and Frazier and tell the White Sox take it or leave it.

To me that'd be fair. We get our ace and a 3b. They get two prime positional prospects and a potential top of the rotation starter in Newcomb, a promising young pitcher that has upside as either a starter or reliever in Sims, and a quality prospect in Ruiz along with salary relief.
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Didn't we go through this once already with Uggla? Throw out all the years in that band box in Cincinnati and he's not that great. .302 OBP last season and it's quite an accomplishment if you hit 40 HRs and still don't manage a > .800 OPS.

I'm ready to take some lumps again in 2017. We'll be incrementally better, but I think we need to let the younger guys grow one more year, see what we have, and then make moves when we are closer to being a legitimate contender.
 
50PoundHead said:
And with Sale, we'll probably have the same 78 wins the White Sox had in 2016. We make that trade and I think a lot of fans would nominate Coppolella for Mayor of Crazytown.
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I remain in agreement with you that it is bad timing, just saying that trade seems like a reasonable-ish amount of pain, perhaps with some more coming back from the Sox. Maybe switch Allard for Newcomb or something and it's less one-sided? I dunno.
 
emk418 said:
Why is a trade for sale just about 2017? He's under control for 3 seasons. Even if this year is a bit early how often do you have a chance to land someone like him?
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I think we need to see what trajectory we're on after this season before making any major moves like this one. We have so much talent in the lower minors, and to me it would be better to see if any of that talent is a step closer to contributing before we sell off major farm pieces. As for the chance to land someone like him, top talent becomes available quite often.
 
Only thing I can think that makes sense is we like our lower level talent better than upper level and Whitesox want upper level, which is why we match up. Maybe they really like Newcomb, Mallex, Blair, Demerrite/Albies and aren't as focused on Allard/Acuna/Touki/Maitan/etc in Rome.
 
God, I love this time of year. Wish that podcast was up and we were doing this live.
Wait a minute, I DO do this live, every weekday at noon on WAAK, 94.7 FM and waak.catt.com on the Net. Wish you guys would join in occasionally. (Oh, 706-935-2890).
 
CJ9 said:
Just curious, why do you think Albies is expendable? What's your plan at second?
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A Jace/Rodriguez platoon has a legit a believable shot at an 800+ OPS with solid defense. Whether you choose to believe it or not. Hopefully TD will keep making strides and we have plenty of other MI prospects that could be ready in a couple years. Do you honestly think Albies won't struggle his first season in the majors?? He surely did in AAA. Rod/Jace is likely a big upgrade over what Albies can do his first year. That's just probabilities.
 
thewupk said:
Albies is not expendable and is currently #12 on mlb pipeline top 100. He is our top prospect if you don't consider Swanosn a prospect anymore.
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And we have have avenues to replace him so he is very valuable and we can likely be fine with out him. Can't make significant upgrades without giving up big talent. We have no clue if Albies will ever succeed.

Hope he does... but we know Sale is a superstar.
 
50PoundHead said:
Didn't we go through this once already with Uggla? Throw out all the years in that band box in Cincinnati and he's not that great. .302 OBP last season and it's quite an accomplishment if you hit 40 HRs and still don't manage a > .800 OPS.

I'm ready to take some lumps again in 2017. We'll be incrementally better, but I think we need to let the younger guys grow one more year, see what we have, and then make moves when we are closer to being a legitimate contender.
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Uggla was never half as athletic as Frazier. No comparison.
 
Oklahomabrave said:
Only thing I can think that makes sense is we like our lower level talent better than upper level and Whitesox want upper level, which is why we match up. Maybe they really like Newcomb, Mallex, Blair, Demerrite/Albies and aren't as focused on Allard/Acuna/Touki/Maitan/etc in Rome.
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Hard to see why we don't love our lower level talent more. Solid guys close... huge ceilings young.
 
Enscheff said:
The Braves trading for Sale is equally as stupid as the DBacks signing Greinke. Both teams overestimated how good they were, and dumped too many assets into a single star player. The DBacks used cash, while the Braves will use prospect assets, but it's the same exact mistake.
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What Arizona did (at least so far) was worse because they did BOTH. They signed Greinke to a crazy contract that they will be unable to move, even IF he remains good (or at a minimum it will diminish his return value severely) AND they traded a ton of young talent for Miller. They jumped the gun on their rebuild and I think a very good argument could be made that they were significantly better off than the Braves are now.

If the Braves could get Sale for something like Wisler, Blair, Mallex, Demeritte and Ruiz then maybe you pull the trigger. But the Chisox aren't going to move him for that.
 
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