Around Baseball Offseason Edition - Derek Jeter will retire at seasons end

[Tapate50]

Yeah, small but throws hard from the left side. Has been pretty effective so far. Just hitting arby so he would be controllable.

[Hawk]

Yeah, small but throws hard from the left side. Has been pretty effective so far. Just hitting arby so he would be controllable.

I like his wind-up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzbqRet5bvk

Too bad we couldn't sign Jeff Francouer and then trade him for Collins. Bet Moore would be all over that.

[zitothebrave]

Royals are interested in shopping Tim Collins (was a brave farmhand for a minute or two and never should have moved) and Aaron Crow.

I'd be interested in bringing Collins aboard. I'd give them Gilmartin for him.

I'd send them Gilmartin and someone else who's not special for both of them. They'll cost a little bit (both are Arb1) but we have the cash to spare for some quality BP depth.

[clvclv]

Royals are interested in shopping Tim Collins (was a brave farmhand for a minute or two and never should have moved) and Aaron Crow.

I'd be interested in bringing Collins aboard. I'd give them Gilmartin for him.

Included in the story was the mention that they're also "listening" on Holland. Greg's from my hometown and alma mater (WCU), and would likely be more open to signing an extension than Kimbrel since he grew up a Braves fan. Maybe just go get him for the 8th this year and make every game a 5 inning affair, then move Kimbrel next winter for even better prospects than we give up to land him.

(Imagining Holland in the 8th followed by Kimbrel in the 9th may well cause heads to explode.)

:panic::panic::panic::panic::panic:

[PawPawMaxwell]

doubt the Royals would seriously listen on Holland just yet. They say they are positioning themselves to contend with the Tigers in 15.

[clvclv]

"The Royals are also willing to at least entertain the thought of parting with prized closer Greg Holland, though according to Dutton they would need a "major" return for their ninth-inning man and aren't too keen on parting with him. One club official said to Dutton: "Are we actively looking to move Holland? No. But we’ve got to be open-minded to everything."

Just another of those pipe dreams that are fun to imagine.

[BRule]

Im not sure why people are mad about Haren.

He wasnt that good last year but better in the 2nd half.

Not a huge upgrade over Wood/Beachy.

He was pretty damn good in the 2nd half

July - 23 IP / 26 K with a 1.04 WHIP and 3.13 ERA with a BAA of .214
August - 36 IP / 31 K with a 1.06 WHIP and a 3.68 ERA with a BAA of .246
September - 28 IP / 27 K with a 1.04 WHIP and a 2.89 ERA with a BAA of .216

[Heyward]

He was pretty damn good in the 2nd half

July - 23 IP / 26 K with a 1.04 WHIP and 3.13 ERA with a BAA of .214
August - 36 IP / 31 K with a 1.06 WHIP and a 3.68 ERA with a BAA of .246
September - 28 IP / 27 K with a 1.04 WHIP and a 2.89 ERA with a BAA of .216

Thats what i mean, he was good, yes but is he a 10 million upgrade over Beachy/Wood?

Im not sure about that.

I'd like a veteran starter but im not sure who is a massive upgrade over those two.

[Heyward]

Tigers supposedly in talks with Brian Wilson.

[Tapate50]

Thats what i mean, he was good, yes but is he a 10 million upgrade over Beachy/Wood?

Im not sure about that.

I'd like a veteran starter but im not sure who is a massive upgrade over those two.

Agree. Haren won't be a 10 mill upgrade on anyone we already have. That's just paying for depth for depths sake.... Which is good, but at a way more reasonable rate

[Hawk]

When Jason Vargas is getting $8MM, Haren at $10MM seems like a steal.

[Dalyn]

Hated losing Collins. Would love to get him back.

[BRule]

Thats what i mean, he was good, yes but is he a 10 million upgrade over Beachy/Wood?

Im not sure about that.

I'd like a veteran starter but im not sure who is a massive upgrade over those two.

Well, Beachy most likely isn't the Beachy we remember and Wood would be on an innings limit and in his 1st real year as a starter. So yeah, I'd take Haren over both

[mfree80]

Well, Beachy most likely isn't the Beachy we remember and Wood would be on an innings limit and in his 1st real year as a starter. So yeah, I'd take Haren over both

What leads yo to believe that Beachy will not come back strong? He was showing very good progress when he had the scar tissue issues. Those are not uncommon and fixable. The cleanup surgery found everything in order. I expect he will be the Beachy we remember. He will now be further from TJ, with a full off season to heal.

Count me as very optimistic about Beachy.

[The Chosen One]

The starts I watched Haren he could barely hit 88 mph.

[BRule]

The starts I watched Haren he could barely hit 88 mph.

For his career, his FB has averaged 90.4 mph....last year it was at 88.9 (4 seam)

His 2 seam for his career is 90.0 and last year it was 89.1

[The Chosen One]

I watched him in AZ. Was a huge fan of his and he was clocking his 2 seamer at 91-94. Worth 10 million? Not for me.

[BRule]

His 2 seamer in AZ, averaged 90.4....the fastest was 90.5, in AZ.

[skillet]

Brandon Beachy > Dan Haren. Beachy at roughly $900M >>>>>>> Dan Haren at $10MM.

[BRule]

Brandon Beachy > Dan Haren. Beachy at roughly $900M >>>>>>> Dan Haren at $10MM.

Beachy of last year, no....Beachy of 2 years ago, yes.

[thethe]

Why even consider what Beachy was last year?

[skillet]

Beachy of last year, no....Beachy of 2 years ago, yes.

Even Beachy this past year in his very limited action, coming back from major surgery and scar tissue issues, had an ERA of 4.50, WHIP of 1.03, BAA of only .239. Lifetime his ERA is 3.23, WHIP of 1.13, BAA of .220. Haren last year had an ERA of 4.67, WHIP of 1.24, BAA of .268. Lifetime his ERA is 3.74, WHIP of 1.19, BAA of .254. Haren is simply not as good a pitcher as Beachy, and he costs a whole lot more. There really is no comparison.

[Tapate50]

Well, Beachy most likely isn't the Beachy we remember and Wood would be on an innings limit and in his 1st real year as a starter. So yeah, I'd take Haren over both

Interesting take. I can't agree with either. Beachy will be better than Haren, and so will Wood. Wood has been a starter in college and milb, and in MLB. Not sure why we should expect anything worse than what we have gotten so far. If anything ....better.

[benchguy]

900 million for Beachy??? too much for me... LOL


Brandon Beachy > Dan Haren. Beachy at roughly $900M >>>>>>> Dan Haren at $10MM.

[Dalyn]

If Beachy starts in the rotation, we will likely regret it. He needs to be treated similar to how Medlen was (with a little less jerking around).

[Dunit24]

If Beachy starts in the rotation, we will likely regret it. He needs to be treated similar to how Medlen was (with a little less jerking around).


Not really following the Dan Haren hype. He sucks. Im glad we didnt get him. Not worth 10 mil.

[BRule]

Why even consider what Beachy was last year?

Because it's not a given he's going to be healthy?

[thethe]

Because it's not a given he's going to be healthy?

I think its pretty close with the way surgical procedures are performed nowadays but there is always a chance things can go wrong.

[BRule]

I think its pretty close with the way surgical procedures are performed nowadays but there is always a chance things can go wrong.

Couldn't they same be said about pitchers that get TJS? And what has happened with Venters and Beachy?

To say "it's close to a given" that a pitcher coming off back to back injuries will be back to normal is rather crazy, IMO.

[thethe]

Beachy didn't have back to back injuries.

[Heyward]

900 million for Beachy??? too much for me... LOL

Pretty sure he means 900K

[BRule]

Beachy didn't have back to back injuries.

So he didn't have TJS and then have to be shut down again this year?

[thethe]

So he didn't have TJS and then have to be shut down again this year?

That happens with certain pitchers in their first year back. If the season was longer he probably would have come back. He did not have an overly invasive procedure. Its not back to back serious injuries like you are making it out to be.

[nsacpi]

Beachy should be fine. And Hale is a pretty good candidate for the rotation if a vacancy comes up. And Cody Martin is about ready too, with a strong season last year divided between AA and AAA.

[Heyward]

So he didn't have TJS and then have to be shut down again this year?

He did but that happens with TJ.

It was a minor surgery and he should be ready to go for ST.

Again, Haren isnt that much of an upgrade over Beachy/Wood.

I'd like a veteran SP but who is out there realistically whose a big upgrade?

[benchguy]

I figured that, just kidding


Pretty sure he means 900K

[Dalyn]

Not really following the Dan Haren hype. He sucks. Im glad we didnt get him. Not worth 10 mil.

That's fine and all, but it has nothing to do with what I said. :cooter:

[nsacpi]

Haren's a good pitcher. My guess is he'll put up a FIP of about 3.70 next year.

The thing is that might not be an improvement over the guys currently penciled for our rotation. I expect Minor, Medlen, Wood, Teheran and Beachy to have FIP in the 3.30-3.60 range. Some might do worse than expected and some better. But I don't think there is one you can say is likely to be worse than Haren.

Our starting pitching depth could be better, but it is not bad. If Hale had to go to the rotation, I'd expect a FIP in the 3.80-4.00 range. Not great, but acceptable from your fifth starter. And he has some upside potential. And Cody Martin projects about the same as Hale imo.

[clvclv]

If Nelson Cruz gets anything approaching 4/$75 million, Mac was an absolute steal.

[clvclv]

Interesting take. I can't agree with either. Beachy will be better than Haren, and so will Wood. Wood has been a starter in college and milb, and in MLB. Not sure why we should expect anything worse than what we have gotten so far. If anything ....better.

Minor point to make here.

Minor, Medlen, Teheran, Beachy, Wood, and Hale all reached the MLB level WITHOUT being traded.

I'm interested in digging deeper for concrete evidence (and would love to have others post info if they have it on hand for quick reference), but I can't think of many examples of SPs that made it all the way through our system that went on to have successful careers as SPs that were eventually traded away. Lots of posters love to scream about Wainright, but never mention the fact that there was no spot in the rotation for him in the forseeable future when he was dealt and ignore that he was considered as another tradeable asset given that fact.

It's simply the "Braves' Way" - keep drafting (and signing) and developing Pitchers with MLB caliber ceilings. When you have the 8-10 you need to sustain reasonable success, trade the excess to fill other holes.

I'd argue that the "Moneyball" culture is more about the way the Braves have done business for at least a couple decades than the way Beane & Company has operated - if you watch what Tampa Bay has done since they stopped getting Top 5 picks in the draft, the Braves' strategy slaps you in the face...keep drafting and developing young, controllable pitching (even if some of them don't ultimately turn out to be "Aces") - you'll ALWAYS be able to trade a Medlen/Beachy/Wood for a Trumbo type whenever you want to make a run. The one thing everybody in baseball other than the Braves and Rays always seems to be starving for are those type of assets.

[Tapate50]

If Nelson Cruz gets anything approaching 4/$75 million, Mac was an absolute steal.

Oof. I'd sure hope that doesn't end up the case. Never thought about that though.

[Dunit24]

Oof. I'd sure hope that doesn't end up the case. Never thought about that though.

IMO our needs are as follows:

Leadoff hitter/2B <---could LaStella fit as that?
Lefty RP <---we have Venters and Avilan. Could use another.
ACE starter <---Seems Wren is already making some calls trying to get one

Regarding Cruz, yeah if he lands a 4/75 deal, Yankees will have had a steal in McCann.

[nsacpi]

If Nelson Cruz gets anything approaching 4/$75 million, Mac was an absolute steal.

I don't think he'll get close. Beltran, Choo and Granderson are better corner outfield options.

[nsacpi]

IMO our needs are as follows:

Leadoff hitter/2B <---could LaStella fit as that?
Lefty RP <---we have Venters and Avilan. Could use another.
ACE starter <---Seems Wren is already making some calls trying to get one

Regarding Cruz, yeah if he lands a 4/75 deal, Yankees will have had a steal in McCann.

Heyward will probably be leadoff. Second will likely be a position by committee.

Agree we need another lefty for the pen. Venters won't be back until June. Don't want Fredi running Avilan into the ground, which he will if there isn't another reliable lefty in the pen during those first couple months.

Don't think we can get an ACE starter at anything short of an exorbitant price. The Shields-Myers trade set a bad precedent.

[clvclv]

IMO our needs are as follows:

Leadoff hitter/2B <---could LaStella fit as that?
Lefty RP <---we have Venters and Avilan. Could use another.
ACE starter <---Seems Wren is already making some calls trying to get one

Regarding Cruz, yeah if he lands a 4/75 deal, Yankees will have had a steal in McCann.


San Francisco just outrighted Jose Mijares. Interesting as a LOOGY if Wren decides not to use someone already in the system. .225/.288/.335/.623 career line against left handed hitters and a high (3.75/1) K/BB rate against them.

[Tapate50]

I'd still like to flip an arm to KC for Collins and maybe Crow. We have the cash to spend (and probably won't find a way to spend it elsewhere) so why not.

[nsacpi]

Mijares would be a good pickup. His numbers last season were hurt by a very high BABIP. Peripherals against lefties have remained strong.

[50PoundHead]

Minor point to make here.

Minor, Medlen, Teheran, Beachy, Wood, and Hale all reached the MLB level WITHOUT being traded.

I'm interested in digging deeper for concrete evidence (and would love to have others post info if they have it on hand for quick reference), but I can't think of many examples of SPs that made it all the way through our system that went on to have successful careers as SPs that were eventually traded away. Lots of posters love to scream about Wainright, but never mention the fact that there was no spot in the rotation for him in the forseeable future when he was dealt and ignore that he was considered as another tradeable asset given that fact.

It's simply the "Braves' Way" - keep drafting (and signing) and developing Pitchers with MLB caliber ceilings. When you have the 8-10 you need to sustain reasonable success, trade the excess to fill other holes.

I'd argue that the "Moneyball" culture is more about the way the Braves have done business for at least a couple decades than the way Beane & Company has operated - if you watch what Tampa Bay has done since they stopped getting Top 5 picks in the draft, the Braves' strategy slaps you in the face...keep drafting and developing young, controllable pitching (even if some of them don't ultimately turn out to be "Aces") - you'll ALWAYS be able to trade a Medlen/Beachy/Wood for a Trumbo type whenever you want to make a run. The one thing everybody in baseball other than the Braves and Rays always seems to be starving for are those type of assets.

Agree and disagree, but if you go back to the 1990s, the Braves had a big payroll and were able to extend the contracts of their best players at premium prices, something the A's could never do. I think we've done a good job of drafting and developing pitching and cobbling together decent bullpens (helps to have a guy like Kimbrel at the back of pen and be able to build backwards). This has been done by thinking outside the box in some instances.

BUT (and as Pee Wee Herman said to Simone in "Pee Wee's Big Adventure," "everyone's got a big but.") we've taken anything but the Moneyball approach in putting together our big club under Wren with bad investments in guys like Lowe, Kawakami, Uggla, and Upton. I can't think of four less Beane-like examples of player acquisition.

[nsacpi]

I think Wren is going to be a bit gun shy with free agents and long contracts now, having been thrice burnt. That wouldn't be a bad thing. If our farm system remains productive I think a good case can be made to only dip into free agency for mid-level type guys who can fill a need for a year or two. More than anything else it is the length of contracts that have been problematic with Lowe and Upton. Uggla was not a free agent but the combination of age/length of contract has also been an issue with him.

In contrast picking up Bourn for a year and a half was good business. Picking up Maholm for a year and a half worked out ok even with his disappointing performance toward the end because the length of contract limited the risk.

So I see Wren leaning toward making those sort of deals to fill holes (Howie Kendrick btw fits that profile). And on the occasions he brings in a free agent, I don't think we'll be seeing anything longer than a two year deal.

The unknown at this point is how aggressive he will be in taking risk with the younger, homegrown talent like Heyward, Freeman and Simmons. With players who come up through your system, there is more information about those players. So a case can be made that the combination of their being very young and us having a lot of knowledge about them makes them less risky investments. It remains to be seen whether we make some longer-term contract offers to them.

[50PoundHead]

nsacpi, I agree. It's not the annual salary outlay where Wren has been wrong (except for perhaps Upton where he appeared to bid against himself), it's been on length of contract. The problem is that the overall market has veered in the direction where the larger markets can and will take on longer contracts and that has put Wren at a competitive disadvantage.

And you're right about Uggla and perhaps I shouldn't lump him in with free agent signings, but the decision to extend his contract was a distinction without a difference.

[nsacpi]

nsacpi, I agree. It's not the annual salary outlay where Wren has been wrong (except for perhaps Upton where he appeared to bid against himself), it's been on length of contract. The problem is that the overall market has veered in the direction where the larger markets can and will take on longer contracts and that has put Wren at a competitive disadvantage.

And you're right about Uggla and perhaps I shouldn't lump him in with free agent signings, but the decision to extend his contract was a distinction without a difference.

Last off-season we saw the older centerfielders on the FA market get fairly long deals. Bourn and Pagan got 4. Victorino got 3. And we gave Upton who was younger 5. So the market definitely makes it hard for a team to control how long these contracts run. I think with the market like that maybe we should have used some of our prospects to get Span or Revere. Easy to say in hindsight. But I think this is the lesson Wren is going to draw. I sense zero interest on his part to make a significant FA signing this off-season.

[Tapate50]

Boy, Victorino would have made a lot of difference on this club .

[Tapate50]

But I think this is the lesson Wren is going to draw. I sense zero interest on his part to make a significant FA signing this off-season.

Agree 100%

[nsacpi]

Boy, Victorino would have made a lot of difference on this club .

He had a pretty poor year in 2012 at age 31. Shows you shouldn't give too much weight to one season whether it is a poor season or great one. I always like to look at the player's last three years and choose the middle year (in terms of performance) to judge what is likely to come next.

[50PoundHead]

He had a pretty poor year in 2012 at age 31. Shows you shouldn't give too much weight to one season whether it is a poor season or great one. I always like to look at the player's last three years and choose the middle year (in terms of performance) to judge what is likely to come next.

Agree. Victorino settled for 3 years instead of the 5 we gave Upton and we could use that type of flexibility. Of course, Victorino really isn't a CF anymore, which likely played into the decision-making.

[BRule]

Last off-season we saw the older centerfielders on the FA market get fairly long deals. Bourn and Pagan got 4. Victorino got 3. And we gave Upton who was younger 5. So the market definitely makes it hard for a team to control how long these contracts run. I think with the market like that maybe we should have used some of our prospects to get Span or Revere. Easy to say in hindsight. But I think this is the lesson Wren is going to draw. I sense zero interest on his part to make a significant FA signing this off-season.

IMO, The really good GM's do a good job of not falling victim to the "Well the market dictated we had to go to X years" especially for a player like BJ Upton. Now, if you think that player is worth the X years at X amount then go for it but signing a player to terms, just because the market dictates it, is usually a horrible way to sign free agents.

[Heyward]

IMO, The really good GM's do a good job of not falling victim to the "Well the market dictated we had to go to X years" especially for a player like BJ Upton. Now, if you think that player is worth the X years at X amount then go for it but signing a player to terms, just because the market dictates it, is usually a horrible way to sign free agents.

What do you think of the Cardinals signing Peralta for 4 years through age 32-35.

[BRule]

What do you think of the Cardinals signing Peralta for 4 years through age 32-35.

Don't get it, very un-Cardinals like move, he's had 2 years in the last 7 with an OPS over 690 and one was this year where he got caught for PEDs.

Not saying most teams don't do it but if you continue to do that year, after year then you probably aren't going to win a lot. Obviously the Cardinals don't make this kind of move a ton.

[nsacpi]

What do you think of the Cardinals signing Peralta for 4 years through age 32-35.

Hmmm. They have a hole at short similar to our situation in center last off-season. Similar to the BJ Upton signing imo. Except for Peralta's age and PED history. Doesn't mean that it will end badly, but I think the Cards would have been better served using their surplus of young starting pitchers to get a younger, less expensive, less risky SS.

[Heyward]

Hmmm. They have a hole at short similar to our situation in center last off-season. Similar to the BJ Upton signing imo. Except for Peralta's age and PED history. Doesn't mean that it will end badly, but I think the Cards would have been better served using their surplus of young starting pitchers to get a younger, less expensive, less risky SS.

The latter is why i think they signed him.

I dont think they wanted to trade their young pitching for a SS.

[nsacpi]

The latter is why i think they signed him.

I dont think they wanted to trade their young pitching for a SS.

Maybe they tried for a trade and couldn't find a good match. Still the signing looks bad to me.

[Heyward]

Maybe they tried for a trade and couldn't find a good match. Still the signing looks bad to me.

I wouldnt say bad, he's the only real good SS on the open market.

Drew comes with draft pick compensation.

I do find it a little weird they get better defensively with Bourjos but get worse on defense with Peralta.

[Heyward]

Twins nearing major signing, i'd guess Nolasco.

If that's "big"

[clvclv]

Twins nearing major signing, i'd guess Nolasco.

If that's "big"

Got an alert saying it is Nolasco. Haven't seen terms yet.

[Heyward]

Got an alert saying it is Nolasco. Haven't seen terms yet.

Yeah, it's Nolasco.

No terms on the contract, i'd guess 5/70.

[Hawk]

According to MLBTR the Twins' franchise record for a FA (until now) is Josh Willingham, at 3/21.

Does anybody still want to bitch about Liberty?

[50PoundHead]

According to MLBTR the Twins' franchise record for a FA (until now) is Josh Willingham, at 3/21.

Does anybody still want to bitch about Liberty?

Well, they are paying Mauer $24 million per year.

[Hawk]

Well, they are paying Mauer $24 million per year.

The Braves signed Greg Maddux for $28 million in 1992. It will have taken the Twins over twenty years to surpass that mark. I mean ... :YDS:

[50PoundHead]

Don't get me wrong. I live up here in Minnesota and the Twins are incredibly tight, but I believe the $28 million to Maddux was for the life of his deal and not one season.

[Hawk]

Yes, it was over 5 years. My point was that the Twins don't appear to spend money. At all. Except on Mauer. I didn't realize they were that tight.

[Knucksie]

Does anybody still want to bitch about Liberty?

Yes, that's an excellent idea for somebody here to do. It's my understanding that their representatives closely monitor this forum and care very deeply about the opinions of Ritalin-addicted college undergrads, who spend the majority of their free time on the internet.

[Hawk]

Lol. Harsh knucksie, harsh.

[TURBO]

Lol. Harsh knucksie, harsh.

Most of his post are. He turns into a grumpy old man if he reads something he doesnt like.

[weso1]

Most of his post are. He turns into a grumpy old man if he reads something he doesnt like.

I personally wasn't paying attention to what he typed.

[The Chosen One]

I see you guys are in mid season form already.

[50PoundHead]

Yes, it was over 5 years. My point was that the Twins don't appear to spend money. At all. Except on Mauer. I didn't realize they were that tight.

You're pretty much right.

[Tapate50]

Nolasco 4 / 49 I think I read

[Perfect Cell]

twins might sign phil hughes next though.

[Tapate50]

Two yr deal for Phil?

Those are both solid moves IMO.

[clvclv]

Yes, it was over 5 years. My point was that the Twins don't appear to spend money. At all. Except on Mauer. I didn't realize they were that tight.


Mauer's deal FAR EXCEEDS any contract the Braves have signed anyone to. Not really even close. Not saying that they're not tight, but referencing his deal is a bad idea - that's the highest contract ever given to a Catcher by ANYONE (including the Yankees). It was the 8th highest deal EVER signed at the time.

Mauer's $184 million is the equivalent of 31.83% of what Forbes has the franchise valued at and his base salary was 28% of their entire 2013 Opening Day payroll.

[The Chosen One]

Dayton Moore receives another lifeline. 2 year extension.

[Hawk]

Mauer's deal FAR EXCEEDS any contract the Braves have signed anyone to. Not really even close. Not saying that they're not tight, but referencing his deal is a bad idea - that's the highest contract ever given to a Catcher by ANYONE (including the Yankees). It was the 8th highest deal EVER signed at the time.

Mauer's $184 million is the equivalent of 31.83% of what Forbes has the franchise valued at and his base salary was 28% of their entire 2013 Opening Day payroll.

lolwut?

[NYCBrave]

Good news for those who wanted Ayala gone, we have competition:


Chris Cotillo of MLB Daily Dish reports that the Rays and Red Sox have expressed interested in free agent right-hander Luis Ayala.

The Orioles, Dodgers, Giants, Phillies and Braves have also expressed interest this offseason. The 35-year-old struggled a bit last season, posting a 3.27 ERA, 1.55 WHIP and 22/13 K/BB ratio over 33 innings. He should have no problem securing a one-year major league deal.

[NYCBrave]

Why are we not in on him? For that matter, why are we not mentioned with anyone it seems?


Chris Cotillo of MLB Daily Dish reports that the Orioles, Indians, Cubs and Phillies are interested in free agent reliever Edward Mujica.

Cotillo notes that Mujica is expected to receive a contract similar to the three-year, $15.75 million deal that Joe Smith inked with the Angels. The 29-year-old right-hander notched 37 saves for the Cardinals this season, while posting a 2.78 ERA, 1.01 WHIP and impeccable 46/5 K/BB ratio in 64 2/3 innings. His fantasy value will be entirely dependent on how close he is to save chances in the respective bullpen he winds up in.

[bravebonebook]

[QUOTE=NYCBrave;64466]Why are we not in on him? For that matter, why are we not mentioned with anyone it seems?

Braves don't need to spend money to improve! They have a minor league farm and tradition and a couple or 3 future or current HOFers working for them in the FO. Liberty Media has them set for greatness already. Why bother with mundane improvements that require something as pedestrian as money??

[nsacpi]

The Braves are extremely deep in RHP. The RHP who could potentially competing for bullpen spots in spring training include: Kimbrel, Walden, Carpenter, Varvaro, Gearrin, Hale, Graham, Northcraft, Schlosser, Martin, Jaime, Vasquez, Lamm, Harper, Simmons, Obispo.

Under those circumstances it doesn't make sense to pursue guys like Mujica and Ayala. Nothing wrong with them. Just that we have a ton of young RHP who are ready or almost ready for the majors. Of course, Wren and company love to have that veteran guy in the pen. So we might see a Durbinator type guy brought in. I hope not, but that is the MO of our front office.

[Heyward]

[QUOTE=NYCBrave;64466]Why are we not in on him? For that matter, why are we not mentioned with anyone it seems?

Braves don't need to spend money to improve! They have a minor league farm and tradition and a couple or 3 future or current HOFers working for them in the FO. Liberty Media has them set for greatness already. Why bother with mundane improvements that require something as pedestrian as money??

What exactly should we spend it on?

A relief pitcher, a marginal at BEST upgrade SP?

I'd like a bench piece, and a bullpen arm but bitching because they arent doing anything, smh.

Not like we need to do a whole lot.

[yeezus]

LOL.
Seems some fans like the thrill of just signing guys, even if we don't need to waste the money.
I admit, it's more exciting to sign guys. Exciting doesn't mean it's smart, in this case.

[Heyward]

LOL.
Seems some fans like the thrill of just signing guys, even if we don't need to waste the money.
I admit, it's more exciting to sign guys. Exciting doesn't mean it's smart, in this case.

Yep, sometimes the best move are the ones you don't make.

[nsacpi]

If we do sign or trade for a veteran guy for the pen, I hope he is a lefty. We are not nearly as deep from the left side.

[Heyward]

Twins sign Phil Hughes, 3/24, thats actually not that bad.

[nsacpi]

The Phil Hughes contract is one of the better deals (for the team) that I've seen this post-season.

The biggest overpay so far is what the Giants gave to Lincecum.

[Tapate50]

Jeff Fletcher of the Orange County Register believes that Tommy Hanson will be non-tendered by the Angels.
The Halos had high hopes for Hanson when he was acquired from the Braves last offseason, but after a disappointing season in which he posted a 5.42 ERA, 1.55 WHIP and 56/30 K/BB ratio over 73 innings, the 27-year-old simply wouldn't be worth the raise that he'd garner in arbitration, after earning $3.725 million in 2013.

[Gary82]

Jeff Fletcher of the Orange County Register believes that Tommy Hanson will be non-tendered by the Angels.
The Halos had high hopes for Hanson when he was acquired from the Braves last offseason, but after a disappointing season in which he posted a 5.42 ERA, 1.55 WHIP and 56/30 K/BB ratio over 73 innings, the 27-year-old simply wouldn't be worth the raise that he'd garner in arbitration, after earning $3.725 million in 2013.

Is this the end of Tommy's career, or will someone give him another shot? I feel for the kid. Nothing is certain in athletics.

[weso1]

Twins are having a great offseason. They need rotation depth and those guys will help a lot.

[50PoundHead]

Twins are having a great offseason. They need rotation depth and those guys will help a lot.

Both guys fit the Twins' "throw strikes" mantra, so it will be interesting to see if Twins' pitching coach Rick Anderson can get more consistency out of Hughes.

[thethe]

Is this the end of Tommy's career, or will someone give him another shot? I feel for the kid. Nothing is certain in athletics.

I would give him a shot if I were a west coast team in a huge ball park. Otherwise, I wouldn't touch him. Guy is toast.

[zitothebrave]

I would give him a shot if I were a west coast team in a huge ball park. Otherwise, I wouldn't touch him. Guy is toast.

Someone will sign him. The Angels just don't want to pay him 4+M and I don't blame them per se. That said, There were plenty of worse pitchers in the majors (SP with 50 innings or more, Tommy was 24th in FIP)

Tommy is not good, but he's better than many teams worst start. He's gonna become that guy for teams like the White Sox, Mariners, etc. WHo's signed for cheap to compete with AAAA guys for the 4th or 5th spot in the rotation.

I woudln't mind bringing him back on a cheap deal and working with him out of the pen. Maybe when he can fully throw 100% and can just live off his fastball and curveball he can find some use.

[gilesfan]

Love the Nolasco signing. I think Hughes is pretty much close to replacement.

[Orphan Black]

A's sign Kazmir for 2 years 22 million....seems like a lot for him. I know he had an okay season, but still.

[50PoundHead]

A's sign Kazmir for 2 years 22 million....seems like a lot for him. I know he had an okay season, but still.

I think he's a better investment than Hudson.

[skidlee]

Chris Cotillo ‏@ChrisCotillo 7m

Source: #Nationals acquire Doug Fister from #Tigers.


Nope lets not improve our club at all.

[CrimsonCowboy]

Chris Cotillo ‏@ChrisCotillo 7m

Source: #Nationals acquire Doug Fister from #Tigers.


Nope lets not improve our club at all.

Beat me to it. Solid addition for the Nats

[Tapate50]

Fister is a good get for sure

[skidlee]

Better then good or solid. Their rotation is better the ours for sure now.

[Heyward]

Good get depending what they gave up.

[Heyward]

Better then good or solid. Their rotation is better the ours for sure now.

It was better before Fister.

[skidlee]

It was better before Fister.

Yes it was but lets still go with Beachy and Wood. No way we can go wrong with that.

[Heyward]

Yes it was but lets still go with Beachy and Wood. No way we can go wrong with that.

Calm down.

[emk418]

Yes it was but lets still go with Beachy and Wood. No way we can go wrong with that.

It's December 2nd.

[thethe]

Why is their rotation better than ours?

[emk418]

Why is their rotation better than ours?

Yea I don't see that as a definite. A healthy Beachy and ours is every bit as good.

[skidlee]

It's December 2nd.

I am trying to open all the Braves Farm Prospect lovers eyes that this team doesn't have the rotation to win a WS.

Coudn't care less if its Nov. 2nd.

Everyone is saying the braves don't need to do anything when they really do need to do 1 major thing.

[thethe]

The Braves won 96 games as one of the youngest teams in baseball. Is it a terrible thing to believe that the players already on the team will get better?

[Heyward]

I am trying to open all the Braves Farm Prospect lovers eyes that this team doesn't have the rotation to win a WS.

Coudn't care less if its Nov. 2nd.

Everyone is saying the braves don't need to do anything when they really do need to do 1 major thing.

What legit ace is realistically obtainable.

I'll wait, and tell me how we can get him.

Dont say Price, thats a pipedream.

A rotation is Julio/Minor/Meds/Beachy/Wood or vet FA is pretty damn good.

[skidlee]

Yea I don't see that as a definite. A healthy Beachy and ours is every bit as good.

Brandon Beachy is not the answer.

[jsebe10]

Good get depending what they gave up.

Was wondering the same. They were talking about shopping Spann. Maybe he was used.

[skidlee]

What legit ace is realistically obtainable.

I'll wait, and tell me how we can get him.

Dont say Price, thats a pipedream.

A rotation is Julio/Minor/Meds/Beachy/Wood or vet FA is pretty damn good.


Where did I say an ACE is needed? Everyone on here as been saying for weeks that we don't need a SP. Stop flip flopping.

[Heyward]

Why is their rotation better than ours?

As of now, its probably better, IF Beachy is healthy and right, ours can go toe to toe with them.

[jsebe10]

The Braves won 96 games as one of the youngest teams in baseball. Is it a terrible thing to believe that the players already on the team will get better?

Uggla and I were discussing that very topic at GNC this morning.

[skidlee]

The Braves won 96 games as one of the youngest teams in baseball. Is it a terrible thing to believe that the players already on the team will get better?

And didn't win a WS.

We had Freddy Garcia start a playoff game.

[Heyward]

Brandon Beachy is not the answer.

He had a sub-3 ERA before he had TJ, Beachy is a legit 2-3 when healthy.

Not the answer but very good.

[Heyward]

And didn't win a WS.

We had Freddy Garcia start a playoff game.

The Dodgers had a rotation of Kershaw/Greinke/Ryu/Nolasco and didnt win the WS.

One team wins the WS.

And Garcia went 6 IP, gave up 2 runs, hardly bad by any means.

[jsebe10]

And didn't win a WS.

We had Freddy Garcia start a playoff game.

Fckn Carl Crawford, man.

[thethe]

Brandon Beachy is not the answer.

Why aren't the injury issues for the Nationals stressed more in your opinion? Strasburg is just as likely as any pitcher in baseball to go down with an injury.

I'll take my chances with Beachy as opposed to giving up a bunch of our young players for not a huge upgrade. Last year Wren didn't overreact to the collapse and look where that got us. We are close and I don't believe a drastic change is what this team needs right now. For all we know both Tehearn/Minor could be top 20 pitchers next year. I just don't understand your negativity all the time. I get that I am over the top optimistic about the Braves young guys but the other side is not much better.

[thethe]

And didn't win a WS.

We had Freddy Garcia start a playoff game.

That was last year due to freak circumstances and now all of our young guys get another yaer of experience. It wasn't Freddy Garcia's fault we lost that game.

[Hawk]

This Chris Cotillo kid has broken three major moves this offseason. I think he's in High School (not kidding.) I wonder who his source is.

[Heyward]

Where did I say an ACE is needed? Everyone on here as been saying for weeks that we don't need a SP. Stop flip flopping.

So we should sign a mid-rotation SP whose a marginal upgrade at best if any at all?

What SP should we get.

[Heyward]

This Chris Cotillo kid has broken three major moves this offseason. I think he's in High School (not kidding.) I wonder who his source is.

I wonder the same, gonna be making the big bucks real soon.

[skidlee]

So we should sign a mid-rotation SP whose a marginal upgrade at best if any at all?

What SP should we get.

Loshe is still the best option IMO.

Lackey is out there and I wouldn't be crazy about getting him but he would bring very good depth and be a vet for the young guy.

I would even talk to the dodgers are Josh Beckett.

I doubt the braves sign one. All the good options are gone now with Josh Johnson, Hudson, and Hughes all signed.

It more then just what could they being on the field that we need to look at.

[skidlee]

So everyone is happy with Beachy and his 5.6 IP per start avg?

[thethe]

Loshe is still the best option IMO.

Lackey is out there and I wouldn't be crazy about getting him but he would bring very good depth and be a vet for the young guy.

I would even talk to the dodgers are Josh Beckett.

I doubt the braves sign one. All the good options are gone now with Josh Johnson, Hudson, and Hughes all signed.

It more then just what could they being on the field that we need to look at.

I'd take Lohse but I would suspect in this market at his contract the Brewers would demand a lot. What would you be willing to give up?

[Hudson2]

Heyward said J Up was a pipe dream last year to. There's a reason why Wren let Hudson go. Yeah I know he got a lot of money but he would of taken less to stay. Wren is after a bigger fish IMO.

[thethe]

So everyone is happy with Beachy and his 5.6 IP per start avg?

Isn't he the projected 4th or 5th starter? He was getting much better than that prior to his injury also in 2012.

Are we going to get 6-7 innings per start from our top 3?

[skidlee]

I'd take Lohse but I would suspect in this market at his contract the Brewers would demand a lot. What would you be willing to give up?

I woud give them Beachy and a low arm. Or Terdo, Hale, and Lamm.

[bravesnumberone]

Solid acquisition for the Nats.

[Heyward]

Loshe is still the best option IMO.

Lackey is out there and I wouldn't be crazy about getting him but he would bring very good depth and be a vet for the young guy.

I would even talk to the dodgers are Josh Beckett.

I doubt the braves sign one. All the good options are gone now with Josh Johnson, Hudson, and Hughes all signed.

It more then just what could they being on the field that we need to look at.

I like Lohse but they are probably asking alot.

Lackey i wouldnt mind at all actually but his league-minimum deal in 2 years make him hard to get.

Beckett's shoulder is cooked.

Again, im really not sure who we can get.

[cajunrevenge]

Dont make the mistake of over simplifying how to improve a team. Virtually the entire team is 30 or younger next year. Improvement should come just from doing nothing.

[Heyward]

So everyone is happy with Beachy and his 5.6 IP per start avg?

Pitchers dont get better?

[skidlee]

Isn't he the projected 4th or 5th starter?

Are we going to get 6-7 innings per start from our top 3?

You tell me. I don't know. People are acting like Beachy is a top flight SP and he isn't. He is a 5 inning pitcher.

[skidlee]

Pitchers dont get better?



So a guy coming off TJ surgery and then an other clean up surgery is going to all of a sudden be a better pitcher then his avg of 5.6 IP per start?

[Heyward]

Heyward said J Up was a pipe dream last year to. There's a reason why Wren let Hudson go. Yeah I know he got a lot of money but he would of taken less to stay. Wren is after a bigger fish IMO.

I also didnt think Towers would eventually cave and not demand Simmons.

We dont have what it takes for Price unless FW hurts the big league team.

[thethe]

You tell me. I don't know. People are acting like Beachy is a top flight SP and he isn't. He is a 5 inning pitcher.

He wasn't a 5 inning pitcher in 2012. Man, you need lighten up. The sky is not falling on December 2nd. Braves are a young team and like Cajun said got better just because of natural progression.

[skidlee]

I like Lohse but they are probably asking alot.

Lackey i wouldnt mind at all actually but his league-minimum deal in 2 years make him hard to get.

Beckett's shoulder is cooked.

Again, im really not sure who we can get.

Lackey's league minimum deal doesn't follow him if he is traded.

[Heyward]

So a guy coming off TJ surgery and then an other clean up surgery is going to all of a sudden be a better pitcher then his avg of 5.6 IP per start?

Yes.

[gilesfan]

Foster for Krol, Lombo, Ray according to sources.

Which makes absolutely nonsense for Tigers. LOOGY, 25th man, and a C+ prospect

[CrimsonCowboy]

Adam Kilgore ‏@AdamKilgoreWP 1m
The Nats acquired Doug Fister from the Tigers for Robbie Ray, Steve Lombardozzi and Ian Krol, per a source.

[skidlee]

He wasn't a 5 inning pitcher in 2012. Man, you need lighten up. The sky is not falling on December 2nd. Braves are a young team and like Cajun said got better just because of natural progression.

I am not saying the sky is falling. I am just bringing up things that this board doesn't want to talk about. Beachy and Wood might not be the pitchers everyone thinks they will be next year. People don't like me saying that.

[thethe]

Sounds like the Tigers were feeling the dollar crunch there.

[skidlee]

Yes.

If you say so.

[Heyward]

IF thats all it took, Detroit got hosed.

Krol is OK but he needs secondary pitches or he's basically a Loogy.

Lombo is a good utility guy, thats about it.

Dont know much about Ray.

But thats a terrible return for Fister.

[Heyward]

I am not saying the sky is falling. I am just bringing up things that this board doesn't want to talk about. Beachy and Wood might not be the pitchers everyone thinks they will be next year. People don't like me saying that.

They could very well have a so-so season or get hurt, or even improve and do well.

Whose to the say the latter cant happen?

[thethe]

I am not saying the sky is falling. I am just bringing up things that this board doesn't want to talk about. Beachy and Wood might not be the pitchers everyone thinks they will be next year. People don't like me saying that.

I don't mind you saying it but you are saying it in such definite terms as if its impossible for them to be good pitchers. Some of us disagree.

Beachy was NOT a 5 inning pitching in 2012. I don't care what he did in 2011 when he was just getting used to the major leagues.

Alex Wood is a really talented pitcher that got his first taste of the big leagues last year. I believe he will continue to get better because of the poise and stuff he showed last year. I don't see a mild improvement as necessary and a drastic improvement is going to be cost prohibitive. Teams like the Braves will win or lose based on the success or failure of their farm system. It is what it is.

[Heyward]

Sounds like the Tigers were feeling the dollar crunch there.

They just got Fielder's deal off the books, they have plenty of money.

Only way this makes sense is if they make a push for Choo.

[skidlee]

They could very well have a so-so season or get hurt, or even improve and do well.

Whose to the say the latter cant happen?

I am not saying they can't be. But I would much rather Beachy and Wood be the 5th/6th starting pitchers than the 4th and 5th starting pitchers.

[yeezus]

I am not saying the sky is falling. I am just bringing up things that this board doesn't want to talk about. Beachy and Wood might not be the pitchers everyone thinks they will be next year. People don't like me saying that.

so brave.

[bravesnumberone]

And this is why I laugh when people insist we don't have the manpower to get at least pretty darn good starting pitching.

[Heyward]

I am not saying they can't be. But I would much rather Beachy and Wood be the 5th/6th starting pitchers than the 4th and 5th starting pitchers.

We didnt get JUp until around January.

Lot of time to make a move for someone, but if we dont, we gotta ride with what we got.

[skidlee]

And this is why I laugh when people insist we don't have the manpower to get at least pretty darn good starting pitching.

lol

[bravesnumberone]

If I remember right, most of the Braves big impact offseason trades have been made after New Year's.

[thethe]

And this is why I laugh when people insist we don't have the manpower to get at least pretty darn good starting pitching.

Different teams value different players differently. Detroit might love the guys they got and they could end up being right.

[skidlee]

I am not mad we haven't done anything yet. I am not shocked we haven't done anything yet. But to think we DON'T need to do anything is a mistake. Braves don't usually start doing business until the winter meeting and beyond.

[thethe]

I am not mad we haven't done anything yet. I am not shocked we haven't done anything yet. But to think we DON'T need to do anything is a mistake. Braves don't usually start doing business until the winter meeting an beyond.

Winning 96 games as one of the youngest teams in baseball doesn't have you confident about the core moving forward?

[skidlee]

Winning 96 games as one of the youngest teams in baseball doesn't have you confident about the core moving forward?

Not to win a WS no.

We need major help on the bench. And being an NL team it matters our bench is good.

We need an 8th inning man and another loogy for the pen.

We need 1 SP.

[Heyward]

And this is why I laugh when people insist we don't have the manpower to get at least pretty darn good starting pitching.

I only said so for Price.

Didnt know the Tigers were stupid.

Thats pretty much like Pastornicky/Avilan/Hale :facepalm:

[yeezus]

I am not saying they can't be. But I would much rather Beachy and Wood be the 5th/6th starting pitchers than the 4th and 5th starting pitchers.

Obviously anyone would prefer it, if it were that simple. But, people are worried about what we'd have to give up or the money we'd spend signing a guy like that. Does Josh Johnson definitely make this rotation better? If he gets hurt and pitches like it, we'd regret wasting the time on him. You have to at least see why we have some questions getting a guy like Lohse at all costs. What if they want a better deal than Terdo and Hale? It very well good. Pitching is valuable. If a guy like Wood can develop to a solid starter, and Minor, Teheran, and Medlen improve, we have a gold mine, only not literally, and that's the good thing. Not many teams have a 1-4 as young and talented as Minor, Teheran, Medlen, and Wood. They're still really young and improving, Teheran took a MAJOR stride this year. He's an extremely valuable pitcher right now. I imagine if he were on another team and you just looked at his age and stats, you'd really want to acquire him.

Teams win with worse rotations than that. Teheran could step up for us next year the way Wacha did for the Cards this year. You're being pessimistic.

[thethe]

Not to win a WS no.

We need major help on the bench. And being an NL team it matters our bench is good.

We need an 8th inning man and another loogy for the pen.

We need 1 SP.

We need the other things more than a starting pitcher IMO. I just don't see why you are so down on Beachy. Players are coming back from surgery all the time now and he showed flashes last year of solid pitching. He just wasn't ready unfortunately.

[skidlee]

Hanson was non-tendered.

[skidlee]

We need the other things more than a starting pitcher IMO. I just don't see why you are so down on Beachy. Players are coming back from surgery all the time now and he showed flashes last year of solid pitching. He just wasn't ready unfortunately.

I would rather get the SP no instead of during the season when they cost way more. I just don't think Beachy will ever be as good and what people here make him out to be.

[thethe]

I would rather get the SP no instead of during the season when they cost way more. I just don't think Beachy will ever be as good and what people here make him out to be.

Thats fair. I don't think he is going to be a TOR guy but I don't see his floor being lower than a 4/5 guy. He was really good in 2012 before getting hurt.

Also, by the time the trade deadline comes around we might be wondering what someone like Hale/Martin could do in the rotation everyday.

[yeezus]

Winning 96 games as one of the youngest teams in baseball doesn't have you confident about the core moving forward?

It's crazy to me.
I'm more excited about our young pitching than our young hitting. Teheran's performance last year is really encouraging, and Minor was awesome. If Medlen is our #3 by the end of the year, that's great. Wood looked good as well, and I'm not sure how you don't give him a shot this year. Starting pitching is expensive, and if it isn't a clear upgrade or a 1,2 year deal for not 10 mil tops, you have to go with what you've got and let it grow.

I think Wren is also smart to wait on this market. He couldn't, wouldn't, and shouldn't give 22 mil to Scott Kazmir. Do we think he will definitely be better than Wood? 20 million better over the next two years? Come on.

We got Upton last year at his current price. If he were a FA, he'd have cost a lot more $$. Wren has to make the smart AND cost-efficient move.

[Heyward]

Not to win a WS no.

We need major help on the bench. And being an NL team it matters our bench is good.

We need an 8th inning man and another loogy for the pen.

We need 1 SP.

Major, no, we need maybe 1-2 pieces for the bench.

Have plenty for an 8th inning guy, not many LOOGY's out there.

SP depends what it would cost in a trade, none of these SP's in FA intrigue me.

[yeezus]

I would rather get the SP no instead of during the season when they cost way more. I just don't think Beachy will ever be as good and what people here make him out to be.

What are people currently making him out to be? A 4th or 5th starter? Do you know what the average #5 starter looks like? Beachy could be a GREAT #5.

[Heyward]

Beachy at BEST is a #4 or 5.

He has #2-3 potential but we'll see how his injury affects him.

I dont see the big deal going in with Wood and Beachy as our 4-5.

[skidlee]

What are people currently making him out to be? A 4th or 5th starter? Do you know what the average #5 starter looks like? Beachy could be a GREAT #5.

They are making him out to be a great SP so that we don't need to get another SP.

So everyone would be happy with Beachy at 4 and wood at 5? That is the rotation everyone wants to go with?

[cajunrevenge]

Jordany Valdespin non-tendered by the Mets. Worth a look imo, he can play SS,2B, and all 3 outfield positions.

[thethe]

They are making him out to be a great SP so that we don't need to get another SP.

He will be a great end of the rotation pitcher compared to the rest of baseball.

[skidlee]

Jordany Valdespin non-tendered by the Mets. Worth a look imo, he can play SS,2B, and all 3 outfield positions.

His attitude is an issue. He was pissed he got sent down last year.

Doubt the braves do that.

[yeezus]

They are making him out to be a great SP so that we don't need to get another SP.

Maybe the organization really believes in Teheran and Minor stepping up. Beachy could be a very good #4, it's not like we're relying on him as our horse.

[skidlee]

He will be a great end of the rotation pitcher compared to the rest of baseball.

The Nats just got Doug Fister for their back end. I doubt think Beachy is better then him.

[thethe]

The Nats just got Doug Fister for their back end. I doubt think Beachy is better then him.

He should be their 4th starter and they have two big time injury risks in their rotation with Stras/detwiler.

[skidlee]

He should be their 4th starter and they have two big time injury risks in their rotation with Stras/detwiler.

Straus is not bigger than Beachy. And They have depth in Roark and Jordan.

Wouldn't ours look a lot better with Minor, Medlen, Tehran, VET, Beachy and Wood/Hale as depth?

[Heyward]

They are making him out to be a great SP so that we don't need to get another SP.

So everyone would be happy with Beachy at 4 and wood at 5? That is the rotation everyone wants to go with?

WANT, no, but if we have to go with it, i wouldnt hate it.

[Heyward]

Straus is not bigger than Beachy. And They have depth in Roark and Jordan.

And we have no depth?

[yeezus]

And we have no depth?

I love how he considers them depth. Taylor Jordan? He's not better than Hale, Hale is probably better.

[skidlee]

Where did I say we have no depth?

[Heyward]

I love how he considers them depth. Taylor Jordan? He's not better than Hale, Hale is probably better.

Jordan is good, i'd take him over Hale but not by much.

[yeezus]

I don't think the Braves have to respond and potentially overpay. If a similar deal were there, it's an obvious move. It most likely wasn't there for them.

[skidlee]

Red Sox Non-Tender Andrew Bailey


He would be a guy I would take a risk on.

[Heyward]

Red Sox Non-Tender Andrew Bailey


He would be a guy I would take a risk on.

Agreed......

[zitothebrave]

Red Sox Non-Tender Andrew Bailey


He would be a guy I would take a risk on.

I'd sign him tomorrow for 4-5M right now. I believe he's arb 3 so he wouldn't be long term risk. We can certainly eat that short term deal and he was great last year but for the homers. Remove that and he's golden. infact his 2.66 SIERA was on par with Carpenter and Walden. Downside is we have 4 ticking time bombs for sure in the pen between him, Walden, Avilan and Venters.

[skidlee]

John Axford was also non-tendered. Another RP I would not mind getting.

[skidlee]

RMooneyTBO ‏@RMooneyTBO 4m

Wesley Wright is other #rays to he non-tendered


Loogy?

[gcbraves]

RMooneyTBO ‏@RMooneyTBO 4m

Wesley Wright is other #rays to he non-tendered


Loogy?

Was just looking at his last two seasons. I would take a flyer on him.

[NYCBrave]

I think some people are underestimating the Nat's rotation based on their underachieving last year. They have 3 legit aces in Strasburg, Gio and Zimmerman.

[zitothebrave]

I think some people are underestimating the Nat's rotation based on their underachieving last year. They have 3 legit aces in Strasburg, Gio and Zimmerman.

Gio was what he should have been last year for the most part. His FIP- by season

2009 - 104
2010 - 93
2011 - 93
2012 - 73
2013 - 91

Zimmerman was also in line with his career as his FIP- has been 82 90 and 89 the last 3 seasons. I don't think anyone underachieved on their staff.

All in all in 2012 vs 2013 the difference in fWAR 16.7 vs 13.4 pretty much all of that is Gio falling back to earth and the difference between Jackson and Haren. Stras, Zimm, and Detwiler alll are about equal. So Gio being the only one who under achieved if you think 2012 was legit.

[CrimsonCowboy]

Orioles trade Jim Johnson to the A's for Jemile Weeks

[Dunit24]

Doug Fister is a great addition to the Nats. He's not an ace, but a very solid #3 or #4 starter. The key for the Nationals though will always be Strasburg. Can he stay healthy and be that ace everybody expected? If so, they will be a handful.

[nsacpi]

Doug Fister is a great addition to the Nats. He's not an ace, but a very solid #3 or #4 starter. The key for the Nationals though will always be Strasburg. Can he stay healthy and be that ace everybody expected? If so, they will be a handful.

Yeah. A shocking trade really, considering what teams have been paying for mediocre starting pitching in the FA market.

[nsacpi]

I am not saying the sky is falling. I am just bringing up things that this board doesn't want to talk about. Beachy and Wood might not be the pitchers everyone thinks they will be next year. People don't like me saying that.

I think the issue of innings per start is a valid one. You need a certain number of innings from your starters. Otherwise the manager ends up having to push the pen too hard. This happened with the Braves in 2011.

It is true that we do not have a horse on our staff who can go 220 innings. But I think Fredi can work around that as he did in 2012 and 2013 when we didn't have a horse either. The plan has to be to push Minor and Medlen a little more. They were very careful with Teheran last season and I think they can get a bit more out of him. I would not push Wood or Beachy too hard given this will be Wood's first full major league season and Beachy is coming back from injury.

I'm not sure Lohse is the solution in terms of getting more innings per starts. His innings per starts declined to 6.2 in 2013 from 6.4 in 2012. Given his age, I'd expect that trend to continue in 2014.

[Tapate50]

Orioles trade Jim Johnson to the A's for Jemile Weeks

Salary DUMP

[gilesfan]

This makes no sense for the Tigers, I have no clue what they are thinking. I can't imagine other teams wouldn't be willing to top that package. Fister is a better pitcher than James Shields, who netted Wil Myers. Better than Jake Peavy, who netted Iglesias. Better than Nolasco, who just got a huge contract. Good article on fangraphs: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/nationals-steal-doug-fister-from-tigers/

Getting away from that Tigers defense and out of the AL could benefit him as well.

[zitothebrave]

This makes no sense for the Tigers, I have no clue what they are thinking. I can't imagine other teams wouldn't be willing to top that package. Fister is a better pitcher than James Shields, who netted Wil Myers. Better than Jake Peavy, who netted Iglesias. Better than Nolasco, who just got a huge contract. Good article on fangraphs: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/nationals-steal-doug-fister-from-tigers/

Getting away from that Tigers defense and out of the AL could benefit him as well.

BUAHAHAHAHA Sigged that ****.

[gilesfan]

Last 3 years:

# Name Team W L SV G GS IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 BABIP LOB% GB% HR/FB ERA FIP xFIP WAR
9 Doug Fister - - - 35 32 0 91 89 586.2 6.78 1.81 0 .61 .300 72.7 % 50.9 % 8.0 % 3.30 3.21 3.48 13.3
10 Cole Hamels Phillies 39 29 0 96 95 651.1 8.46 2.02 0 .88 .280 76.1 % 46.1 % 10.3 % 3.15 3.20 3.23 13.2
11 James Shields - - - 44 31 0 100 100 705.2 8.21 2.44 0 .91 .283 77.0 % 46.7 % 10.9 % 3.15 3.45 3.40 12.9

[zitothebrave]

Lol you're gonna base all your assumptions comparing Fister who pitched in the AL West and Central vs Shields who pitched in the AL East. Shields is well above Fister in RA9-WAR. Basically your case is that Fister is good at keeping his FIP low and he is. Firster also benefits from a healthy HR luck as well.

Fister was a steal for the Nats but saying he's better than Shields is dumb. Very dumb.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Salary DUMP

Sign of things to come in the reliever/closer market. I still would not be surprised to see Kimbrel moved.

[gilesfan]

Lol you're gonna base all your assumptions comparing Fister who pitched in the AL West and Central vs Shields who pitched in the AL East. Shields is well above Fister in RA9-WAR. Basically your case is that Fister is good at keeping his FIP low and he is. Firster also benefits from a healthy HR luck as well.

Fister was a steal for the Nats but saying he's better than Shields is dumb. Very dumb.



I guess you don't like factoring in defense when evaluating pitchers, especially ground ball pitchers? That seems fairly odd to me.

By FIP-based WAR, Fister ranks 9th, right between David Price and Cole Hamels. This is not a case where out new fangled math has identified an undervalued pitcher who only looks good on FanGraphs and looks like crap by traditional metrics. By the things we value the most, Fister has been a top 10 pitcher in MLB over the last three years; by the things that MLB has traditionally valued, he’s been a top 15 pitcher over the same time frame.

[zitothebrave]

Ok lets run through the stats of your statement "Fister is a better pitcher than James Shields" the only stat FIster is better than Shields in is BB Rate, HR Rate, and FIP.

Let's compare all their rate stats

Shields will be on the left Fister on the right

K/9 8.21 vs 6.78
BB/9 2.44 vs 1.81
HR/9 0.91 vs 0.61
ERA- 80 vs 82
FIP- 88 vs 80
xFIP- 84 vs 86
tERA 3.73 vs 3.79
SIERA 3.45 vs 3.54
HR/FB 10.9 vs 8.0

So you see when you look at the whole picture not just go "LOOK AT fWAR" that he is not superior to shields. He has a better FIP because of a better HR rate. Shields has better overall peripherals as indicated by xFIP- and SIERA advantages, and he goes deeper into games. He's better.

I clearly said that the Nationals got a steal, and I clearly stated last year the Royals were morons for trading Myers for Shields. But saying Fister is better than Shields is just wrong and your insistence that it's right just continues to show your homerism.

[sturg33]

Fister is a great pitcher... Really good pickup and I'm not sure what the Tigers are thinking... He would have been perfect for us.

[zitothebrave]

Fister is a great pitcher... Really good pickup and I'm not sure what the Tigers are thinking... He would have been perfect for us.

Especially if all he cost us were guys like Graham and Gilmartin. Only guy they got that could amount to much is Ray. Krol is a reliever, Lombardozzi is Elliot Johnson so far, maybe he'll be weird and figure it out in Detroit and make this deal look super terrible but as it is, it looks like a terrible trade.

Detroit would have been better off dealing Scherzer to a team who'd pay top Dollar or getting ties with Porcello for nothing. Fister is a heck of a bargain, one of the best in baseball.

[Hawk]

Don't really understand the obsessing over pFister. He's a decent 3-4 whose numbers should receive a healthy bounce by switching divisions. Nothing special. I think the Tigers' haul is a reflection of his value.

It is, however, quite enjoyable to see people get this squirrely over a Nats move.

[Tapate50]

They got a steal, of course we discuss it vehemently.

Nathan to Tigers coming to fruition...

[Enscheff]

The last 2 trades add up to some pretty distressing news for the Braves...

Fister is the exact type of starter the Braves could have used in the rotation, and it looks like he was obtained for a very mediocre package. It seems Wren has far less resources at his disposal than we previously thought. Or Wren didn't even know Fister was available...I'm not sure which of those two possible scenarios worries me more.

Johnson is obviously not as good as Kimbrel, but he is one of the top closers and was getting very expensive. All the O's got in exchange for him was a guy who might not even stick as a MLB regular. That is a very underwhelming return (almost a salary dump), and makes me seriously question what Wren can hope to get for Kimbrel on the trade market next offseason.

[nsacpi]

The last 2 trades add up to some pretty distressing news for the Braves...

Fister is the exact type of starter the Braves could have used in the rotation, and it looks like he was obtained for a very mediocre package. It seems Wren has far less resources at his disposal than we previously thought. Or Wren didn't even know Fister was available...I'm not sure which of those two possible scenarios worries me more.

Johnson is obviously not as good as Kimbrel, but he is one of the top closers and was getting very expensive. All the O's got in exchange for him was a guy who might not even stick as a MLB regular. That is a very underwhelming return (almost a salary dump), and makes me seriously question what Wren can hope to get for Kimbrel on the trade market next offseason.

Yup. With Kimbrel, the best course might be to hold on to him and get the draft pick.

[Hawk]

They got a steal, of course we discuss it vehemently.

It was far, far from a steal.

[zbhargrove]

Don't really understand the obsessing over pFister. He's a decent 3-4 whose numbers should receive a healthy bounce by switching divisions. Nothing special. I think the Tigers' haul is a reflection of his value.

It is, however, quite enjoyable to see people get this squirrely over a Nats move.

Considering a rental Matt Garza netted Olt... this deal is puzzling.

[zbhargrove]

It was far, far from a steal.

Fister is better than you're giving him credit for... the package was very mediocre and when comparing the hauls gained recently from mediocre pitchers... it was definitely a steal... Fister is also pretty cheap and under control for a bit.

[Hawk]

Considering a rental Matt Garza netted Olt... this deal is puzzling.

Are you saying that you see Garza as comparable to pFister?

[Heyward]

This makes no sense for the Tigers, I have no clue what they are thinking. I can't imagine other teams wouldn't be willing to top that package. Fister is a better pitcher than James Shields, who netted Wil Myers. Better than Jake Peavy, who netted Iglesias. Better than Nolasco, who just got a huge contract. Good article on fangraphs: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/nationals-steal-doug-fister-from-tigers/

Getting away from that Tigers defense and out of the AL could benefit him as well.

LOL, homers gonna homer.

Fister aint better than Shields.

[Heyward]

It was far, far from a steal.

They gave up a LOOGY, a utility player, and a so-so SP prospect.

Fister could have TJ (wont happen) and they'd still win the deal.

[emk418]

I don't understand why the Tigers wanted to trade him but it's actually a decent return.

[Heyward]

Red Sox sign AJ Pierzynski.

Tigers signing Joe Nathan.

Dodgers re-signing Brian Wilson.

[Heyward]

I don't understand why the Tigers wanted to trade him but it's actually a decent return.

Its a terrible return.

[nsacpi]

I always thought the return on Shields was excessive and an anomaly. Now we have something at the other end of the spectrum. The fair prices for a top pitcher with a couple years of contractual control should be somewhere around the middle of that range. Of course, the Rays will try to spin things differently when teams come asking about David Price. Caveat emptor.

[Hawk]

They gave up a LOOGY, a utility player, and a so-so SP prospect.

Fister could have TJ (wont happen) and they'd still win the deal.

I think that's a gross undervaluation of Ray, and a mislabeling of Krol. Lombardozzi is an interesting piece. The Tigers gained a top 3 pitching prospect, and an instant swing-man who could potentially blossom into a starter outside of the relatively stacked Washington system. Both are also lefties, who seem to be infinitely more valuable in the AL East than in any other division in baseball. Those who are calling this a steal don't seem to be looking at how Krol and Ray will be utilized with Detroit. pFister is a decent pitcher, but it must be reemphasized that he's just a middle of the rotation starter (at a nice price point, for sure.)

[nsacpi]

Btw, wasn't there a consensus a year ago that the Gnats did very well on the Dennard Span trade. These things often move in a way that upends the initial consensus.

[Hawk]

I always thought the return on Shields was excessive and an anomaly. Now we have something at the end of the spectrum. The fair prices for a top pitcher with a couple years of contractual control should be somewhere around the middle of that range. Of course, the Rays will try to spin things differently when teams come asking about David Price. Caveat emptor.

Would we have been saying the same thing if Shields led KC to a championship this past season? Moore believed his team was on the threshold of something big and made a move to cement his starting rotation -- at a very reasonable financial price. Would I have given up Myers for Shields? Hell no. But it's worth waiting to see the full return on Shields before casting stones -- do they trade him this year, or does he lead them into the promised land?

[nsacpi]

Would we have been saying the same thing if Shields led KC to a championship this past season? Moore believed his team was on the threshold of something big and made a move to cement his starting rotation -- at a very reasonable financial price. Would I have given up Myers for Shields? Hell no. But it's worth waiting to see the full return on Shields before casting stones -- do they trade him this year, or does he lead them into the promised land?

I wouldn't give much weight to whether a team won a world series in judging a transaction. Suppose Shields blows out his arm and KC wins the world series? Good trade or not. Absurd to given any weight to the team's winning a world series in that case. Was the Hanrahan or Andrew Bailey trade a good one for the Red Sox? They won the world series after all.

Was the Zito signing a good one for the Giants. The won two world series with him.

[gilesfan]

As fangraphs pointed out, Fister has been a top 15 pitcher in baseball over the past 3 years and you could argue top 10 when you account for him being a ground ball pitcher on a team with horrendous infield defense. If you want to argue Shields is better, have at it, not going to waste my time at that; at worst they are pretty even. Just to use as an example, Fister (an extreme ground ball pitcher) had a babip on ground balls of .287 last year. He's going to the Nationals were their starters had the following BABIP on ground balls:

Strasburg .239
Gio .215
Zimmermann .193
Haren .296
Jordan .253


How are you coming to the conclusion that Ray is a top 3 prospect for the Nats? Based on John Sickels last year he wasn't ranked in the top 20. I actually think Sickels was low on him and BA had him as the 5th best. I think he's a solid C+ type prospect, not anywhere close to sniffing a top 100 list.

Miss labeling of Krol? How do you determine he's a swing man in Detroit? He was utilized as a LOOGY bc he can't get right handed hitters out. This is a guy that was a throw in player to be named later to go with A.J. Cole (a top 3 prospect) for Morse a year ago.

Lombardozzi is a utility man that could have trouble making the Tigers roster. He can hold a glove at 3B and LF, but is essentially a 2B (can't play SS). He's hit .264/.297/.342 in 755 career plate appearences for the Nats. Probably cant be a starter bc he doesnt get on base, hit for power, or field very well. What exactly makes him interesting?

Either way, to get a top 15 (heck you can say top 30 if you want) starting pitcher with 2 more years of arby control for that is crazy. Even if the prospect was a 25-50 ish prospect instead of Ray, it would have been a steal. I guess the extreme Detroit optimist can believe that Lombo turns into Infante, Krol turns into Venters, and Ray becomes a number 3 starter and Fister is a top 50 pitcher in baseball? Does that even make the trade fair?

[gilesfan]

Btw, wasn't there a consensus a year ago that the Gnats did very well on the Dennard Span trade. These things often move in a way that upends the initial consensus.

That was a very fair trade, one that you could understand both sides. B- type pitching prospect for a starting CF.(3.5 Win player)

[Heyward]

Btw, wasn't there a consensus a year ago that the Gnats did very well on the Dennard Span trade. These things often move in a way that upends the initial consensus.

Yes, he did play well.

GG defense, and in the 2nd half, he hit very well.

I dont know how Meyer did for the Twins though.

[Hawk]

I wouldn't give much weight to whether a team won a world series in judging a transaction. Suppose Shields blows out his arm and KC wins the world series? Good trade or not. Absurd to given any weight to the team's winning a world series in that case. Was the Hanrahan or Andrew Bailey trade a good one for the Red Sox? They won the world series after all.

Was the Zito signing a good one for the Giants. The won two world series with him.

I mean, you tell me -- what is the ultimate goal for a major league baseball team? From my point of view, it's winning. Contention cures many ills; it can rejuvenate a fan base (therefore leading to an influx of additional streams of revenue, not just in the form of ticket sales, but also in increased leverage in media and marketing negotiations,) acts as useful bait to free agents, helps with retention of in-house talent, and as a bit of a double-edged sword, forces management to tend towards aggression over complacency in the day to day operations of a club.

[CrimsonCowboy]

A's and Rangers are apparently working on a significant trade

[Hawk]

How are you coming to the conclusion that Ray is a top 3 prospect for the Nats? Based on John Sickels last year he wasn't ranked in the top 20. I actually think Sickels was low on him and BA had him as the 5th best. I think he's a solid C+ type prospect, not anywhere close to sniffing a top 100 list.

BA had him 5th best prospect, 3rd best pitcher.

[Hawk]

A's and Rangers are apparently working on a significant trade

Choice for Gentry. Rosenthal.

[CrimsonCowboy]

Choice for Gentry. Rosenthal.

Just saw that. Not sure that qualifies as "significant", but whatever.

[nsacpi]

I mean, you tell me -- what is the ultimate goal for a major league baseball team? From my point of view, it's winning. Contention cures many ills; it can rejuvenate a fan base (therefore leading to an influx of additional streams of revenue, not just in the form of ticket sales, but also in increased leverage in media and marketing negotiations,) acts as useful bait to free agents, helps with retention of in-house talent, and as a bit of a double-edged sword, forces management to tend towards aggression over complacency in the day to day operations of a club.

I agree that winning is the ultimate goal. But you can win in spite of making some stupid moves. Is that such a radical position to take?

So was the Zito signing a smart move? Enquiring minds want to know.

[Hawk]

I agree that winning is the ultimate goal. But you can win in spite of making some stupid moves. Is that such a radical position to take?

Well, that is kind of the point that I was trying to make. Sorry if it fell flat. Sometimes making a stupid move is a necessary evil?

You mentioned Zito -- an interesting case -- because there's absolutely zero doubt that statistically speaking, his value was almost negative to the Giants throughout his monstrosity of a contract. BUT, putting his numbers aside for a moment, it's also worth looking at the other components of Zito (as both a player and a person) that might have provided some (perhaps negligible) value to San Francisco. They stole him from Oakland, which accounted for a great deal of the overpay, winning them points in the whole intra-city rivalry thing. The guy is prototypically Californian (surf first, think later,) and was a model citizen during his tenure with the team. He represented San Francisco's willingness to spend, and their desire to win. Yeah, he may have tied up money that could have been better spent elsewhere, but it never seemed as though the Giants shopped him agressively or were particularly hamstrung by his contract. And they won. Twice. Helps to wash away that bitter taste (which maybe to them was never that bitter to begin with?) I don't know for sure, but it's food for thought.

[Hawk]

It's interesting that literally as we discuss this, I read that Kansas City has apparently offered Carlos Beltran 3 years, $48 million.

[nsacpi]

Well, that is kind of the point that I was trying to make. Sorry if it fell flat. Sometimes making a stupid move is a necessary evil?

You mentioned Zito -- an interesting case -- because there's absolutely zero doubt that statistically speaking, his value was almost negative to the Giants throughout his monstrosity of a contract. BUT, putting his numbers aside for a moment, it's also worth looking at the other components of Zito (as both a player and a person) that might have provided some (perhaps negligible) value to San Francisco. They stole him from Oakland, which accounted for a great deal of the overpay, winning them points in the whole intra-city rivalry thing. The guy is prototypically Californian (surf first, think later,) and was a model citizen during his tenure with the team. He represented San Francisco's willingness to spend, and their desire to win. Yeah, he may have tied up money that could have been better spent elsewhere, but it never seemed as though the Giants shopped him agressively or were particularly hamstrung by his contract. And they won. Twice. Helps to wash away that bitter taste.

I've lived in the East Bay for most of the past eight years. I have to say your take on how the two teams fan bases see this is um rather idiosyncratic.

I think we do agree, however, that mistakes are not necessarily a bad thing or a sign of bad judgment. Anyone in the oil bidness as they call it in Texas will tell you that you have to be willing to drill a lot of dry holes to get any gushers. The right way of evaluating whether the driller is doing a good job is to look into whether he is drilling in places with favorable geological characteristics or just throwing darts at a board.

[zitothebrave]

It's interesting that literally as we discuss this, I read that Kansas City has apparently offered Carlos Beltran 3 years, $48 million.

Wowzers.

[Heyward]

I agree with ncaspi here.

TB has Myers under control for the next 6 years, while Shields is a FA after this season, no lock he re-ups with the Royals.

Thats an awful trade, no way around it.

[ramadon101]

Wowzers.

To be clear, Hawk read the mlbtraderumors report erroneously. It's unknown which team has offered Beltran 3/48; all it says is that KC is "pushing hard" to land Beltran but may not be the team that offered him 16m per for 3 years. There's some speculation that it's in fact the Mariners who offered that amount (and there's been talk that Seattle has to offer a "premium" to get good players to come there).

[Hawk]

I've lived in the East Bay for most of the past eight years. I have to say your take on how the two teams fan bases see this is um rather idiosyncratic.

I'm jealous. I have family in the Burlingame area.

Of course, it's pretty hard to qualify that type of 'value' -- but some of these quotes from 2006 tell the tale:

"We view Zito as a franchise player, and we'll certainly need one when Bonds goes," said a Giants source, who asked not to be quoted by name because the deal likely will not be announced until Friday.

"I think Barry Zito will be the face of the Giants franchise for a long time," one sources close to the deal said.

"At last, the Giants showed some guts — and some brains directly attached to those newly fortified intestines."

"Without Barry Zito, the Giants would have been considered a sub-.500 team, struggling for a third straight season in the feeble National League West. No ace. No closer. No third hitter. With Barry Zito, everything changes."

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/142/337392373_7441fa6285.jpg

[Hawk]

To be clear, Hawk read the mlbtraderumors report erroneously. It's unknown which team has offered Beltran 3/48; all it says is that KC is "pushing hard" to land Beltran but may not be the team that offered him 16m per for 3 years. There's some speculation that it's in fact the Mariners who offered that amount (and there's been talk that Seattle has to offer a "premium" to get good players to come there).

http://nypost.com/2013/12/03/royals-making-big-push-for-yankees-target-beltran/

He's in KC, so I just assumed they were the ones who made the offer. Where are you hearing the Mariners?

Nevertheless, curious that Kansas would even be willing to make that move. Especially if it would require them moving Butler for payroll flexibility (as The Post insinuates.)

[nsacpi]

I think signing Beltran makes sense for KC (even at 3/48). Then flip Butler for a pitcher.

The A's are having a strong post-season.

[stpeteirish]

Some cheap rotation possibles among non tenders. Jerome Williams, Jeremy Hefner, Daniel Hudson, Kyle McPherson,and..wait for this... Tommy Hansen.

There's plenty more that have been free agents all along. We should bring a few guys like this to camp, they'll be cheap insurance for Beachy and if one of them shows prior form it would allow us to keep Wood's innings down for a few months.

Bullpen guy non tendered who isn't half bad, Ryan Webb of the Marlins. They also non tendered Chris Coghlan who is, IMO, an upgrade over Schafer.

[Hawk]

I wouldn't mind giving Tommy a shot in the bullpen.

[jpx7]

But I think Fredi can work

You lost me here.

[jpx7]

Lombardozzi is an interesting piece.

You lost me here.