Israel

weso1 said:
This may sound snobby, but Israel is a civilized society. In a civilized society more folks are willing to give into reason. Clinton came up with a great plan in 2000. By all honest legit accounts Barak was ready to negotiate and Arafat wasn't willing to even listen. Israel is far from perfect, but I think if you were being honest you would say that you approve more of Israel's constitution than Palestine's.
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And look what's happened to Fatah since - it has moved in a good direction (if the Palestinians want a 2 state solution). But hardcore Palestinians have seen that as a sell out. Hamas has that same choice...

What Z is missing is that Israel isn't composed of all hardcore Zionists. There's a very liberal and secular element within Israel. Just read Haeertz from time to time and you'll see it. But again, when Hamas acts like Hamas then those voices are drowned out.
 
BedellBrave said:
You can't extricate Hamas out of this discussion. Senseless to do so.

And by the way, Jews have been in these parts a really long time too, you know....

Intimating that I thinking bombing houses is totally cool is a desperation move.

Palestinians (especially those in the Gaza strip) have to do some soul searching. They can go the Fatah route with the hopes of a two state peace with virtually all the pressure on Israel or the Hamas/Islamic-Jihad route which has screwed them with the Israelis and now with the Egyptians (since the military is in control of Egypt). They can double down with hate or...
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Great post. Your understanding of the region is impeccable.
 
zitothebrave said:
1. Well it's not really a desperation move. It's getting you to take a stand on a key issue that I think is the crux of this thread, and you haven't.

2. Jews have been there a long time. But they didn't have the nation state as long as Palestine did.

3. I hope they go for peace whether it's through Hamas or Fatah I don't care. That area is royally screwed as it is as is evidence by Israel bombing residences.

4. Which is not something someone does unless desperate.
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1. In war, all precautions should be taken to minimize civilian casualties. And that convention works best when both combatants seek to keep civilians out of harms way. Israel takes more care to minimize such casualties than we probably know. Could they do more? Probably.

2. Palestinians haven't really had their own "nation state" there. They've all been under Brit control or Ottoman control, or a larger Caliphate, or Byzantine, or Roman... They both have a legitimate right to be there.

3. Hamas will only work if it changes.

4. It actually isn't.
 
BedellBrave said:
And look what's happened to Fatah since - it has moved in a good direction (if the Palestinians want a 2 state solution). But hardcore Palestinians have seen that as a sell out. Hamas has that same choice...

What Z is missing is that Israel isn't composed of all hardcore Zionists. There's a very liberal and secular element within Israel. Just read Haeertz from time to time and you'll see it. But again, when Hamas acts like Hamas then those voices are drowned out.
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You can't stress this enough. There are good people in Gaza but the idiots rule the area and Israel has always tried to minimize the casualties unlike Hamas.

Sure they could kill everyone and the world wouldn't like it but they won't do anything because they have nukes and will make the whole region......glass.
 
What we did to the American Indians is far worse than what Israel or Hitler did, so who are we to judge a nation DEFENDING themselves?
 
zitothebrave said:
1. Just keep bobbing and weaving Bedell.

2. That's fine and dandy to a point, but you're nitpicking. If you want to say boundries are a little up in the air then fine whatever. Population dominance of that area was with the same group for ages.You can choose to nitpick, but that's all you're doing.

3. That's a true point, don't think I really argued against that though...

4. Then what is it if not desperate? Massively cruel?
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1. Not bobbing or weaving at all. Just giving you a direct and nuanced answer rather than playing a sort of all-or-nothing internet gotcha game.

2. Hardly nitpicking. You said they've been a nation longer than this Jewish nation has been. And that was just flat out wrong. It's a misleading talking point. It's propaganda. There have been Jews and Arabs in Palestine for centuries - nay, millennia. Both have a legitimate right to be there.

3. No, you have said you don't care whether Fatah or Hamas is the governing body of the Palestinians, which can only mean in my mind that you don't give a rat's arse whether a group that is willing to make a 2 state solution work or one who isn't rules the Palestinians. That seems dumb in my opinion.

4. It's war. War is hell. Cruel is part-n-parcel with war.
 
KeithLockhart said:
There was a subliminal shoutout to the underage sex trade/human trafficking and US signing an agreement to try and prohibit our guys from going there and taking advantage of it.
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I thought he was going with the old Dead Kennedy's punk song 'holiday in Cambodia'
 
"To minimize civilian casualties among Gazan citizens, the Israeli Defence Force first gives warning of an impending attack via telephone, pamphlets, and warning shots. And Hamas? Hamas positions its rocket launchers near schools, hospitals, and mosques and in private homes next to apartment buildings. When the Israelis warn Gazans to leave, Hamas orders them to stay and act as human shields. An IDF poster captures the contrast succinctly: “Israel uses weapons to protect its civilians. Hamas uses civilians to protect its weapons.” Hamas also uses civilian casualties for propaganda purposes. They don’t mind if their own people are killed as long as the compliant Western media is willing to publish the photos of mangled bodies and wailing mothers."

Link
 
"Kindergartners in Gaza are dressed like terrorists and suicide bombers on graduation day. At higher grade levels, youngsters are encouraged to compose essays expressing their dreams of murdering Jews when they grow up. It’s not too much of a stretch to say that—particularly in Gaza—Jewicide is presented as more or less the purpose of life. In fact, getting rid of Jews is the raison d’etre of Hamas. The preamble to the Hamas Charter calls for the elimination of Israel and Article Seven envisions the extermination of all Jews."
 
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