So, wait. Wren was ready to throw Fredi under the bus, but not take any responsibility himself. JS and Bobby Cox probably looked at each other and thought is this guy serious.
Wren "dismissed" --
- Thread starter Dalyn
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So, wait. Wren was ready to throw Fredi under the bus, but not take any responsibility himself. JS and Bobby Cox probably looked at each other and thought is this guy serious.
Millwood1Hitter
Anytime Now Frankie...
I'd like to see him in the dugout for good. He'd automatically command respect, and get the attention of all of the players, and they would go out there and play hard and perform and pay attention to the details and put it all on the line for him. They'd have fun again, the clubhouse wouldn't be a mess, and they would believe. And we'd be able to turn this wreck around as we'd be able to fill some needs as players would once again want to come here and be here. The same can't be said for Fredi.
Bring Bobby back and bring in a young sidekick for the bench coach to be his successor whenever his time is (actually on his terms unlike last time which was Wren's terms). I've said it before and I will throw it out there again but this is what I'd like to see if a coaching staff:
Manager: Bobby Cox
Bench Coach: Joel Skinner
Hitting Coach: Don Baylor (unlikely), Rudy Jamirllo (2nd choice)
Hitting Assistant: Edgar Renteria
Pitching Coach: Roger McDowell
3rd Base Coach: Terry Pendleton
1st Base Coach: Eric Hinske
Bullpen Coach: Eddie Perez
Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
The Uggla/BJ contracts were bad but Wren still did a great job.
Hanson/Walden trade.
And some others.
EOF waiver claim, etc.
Some good late round picks.
Even as a "Fredi supporter", if Frank has to go, so does Fredi.
Even though i dont think a new manager makes THAT much difference.
Hanson/Walden trade.
And some others.
EOF waiver claim, etc.
Some good late round picks.
Even as a "Fredi supporter", if Frank has to go, so does Fredi.
Even though i dont think a new manager makes THAT much difference.
BremanFan88
Playing the Waiting Game
I just had a feeling Bobby would have a say in the Fredi issue. I'm not optimistic.
Millwood1Hitter
Anytime Now Frankie...
As one that has been in the corner of Frank Wren and under the assumption that he has done a solid job, I think one has to look deeper at potential moves that were made that weren't headliners where I think Frank Wren failed and made his bed allowing the organization to be where it is at today.
From a baseball personal matter, Frank Wren the GM in my opinion did a great job outside of 3 major blunders: the BJ deal first and foremost, the 5th year on the Uggla extension, and the KK experiment. He had other moves that did not pan out as desired (McClouth, the Uggla trade, etc.). That's too be expected no matter how good of a GM one is. He held his ground on not overpaying with impact prospects to fill potential needs (Hanson for Peavy, Simmons for JUp) and built the team around those youngsters. He came out a head in most trades and had a few steals (Renteria for Jurrjens, Infante/Ohman deal, Vazquez for Flowers, and the JUpton deal). He was also great at finding pieces on waiver wires and filling needs especially when it came to the pen and rotation. How much that was due to Wren or his assistants is up for interpretation, though.
As you look into it deeper, though, there were some pretty apparant warning signs that some of us in Wren's corner turned a blind eye to. One is from a player development stand point. There is no doubt that our farm system has slipped signifcantly as we went deeper into Wren's & Manno's tenure. Granted we graduated a lot of talent throught the years, but some of that is due to the old management team and the cupboard at this time is pretty bare.
I'm still under the assumption that Bobby was forced out. It didn't make any sense at the time why Bobby would want to step down going through all those down years from 2007-2009 and step away at a time when so much young talent was right at the doorsteps ready to make an impact. We know Wren and Bobby had their head to head battles, and I think Wren wanted nothing more than a yes man....and he got it in Fredi. A lot of the same failings that happened under Wren in Baltimore seemed to manifest itself and show up once again in Atlanta when Wren was given more and more control. Wren got a pass in Baltimore due to Angelos, but there is a trend here.
Wren seemed like a reactionist. Remember the Furcal debacle that was embarrassing as hell. Whenever he had money to spend, he spent it on needs and didn't look at unconventional ways to solve problems and often did not look at the big picture. And while I supported most of the moves that he made on a baseball level, there was almost a sense that Wren was in the mode to get a deal done as quickly as possible. While I like the fact he acted on instinct, at times it was to his detriment.
We have not been able to put together a viable coach that can rely to the players hitting since Pendleton was demoted. I always thought in this case Wren never did do his due dilgence both times in the search. His first go round was like he was trying to light the world on fire, his first interview was Parrish and he shined in the interview, but had no experience and ended up being a disaster. His second search wasn't much more exhaustive, as it seemed he was more interested in getting someone with experience that had local ties and wanted to be here instead of performing an exhaustive search both times, talking to many people, and hiring the best candidate. I don't know what everyone else expected with Walker, the same problems we are having now are the same exact sentiments that people around the White Sox camp were saying before his dismissal.
And with that, through all of this, young new Wren was good, the more power Wren was given the more blunder prone and arrogant he become, causing the strain it has caused within the organization. It's dumfounding that he fooled around as long as he did with McDowell almost losing him. No matter what some may believe here, McDowell is a top 3 pitching coach at the MLB level. We'd be lost without him. The instructional instutions in the minors lost structure and are in need of major repair and stability.
While I was in Wren's camp at first, he needed to go and was a huge problem.
From a baseball personal matter, Frank Wren the GM in my opinion did a great job outside of 3 major blunders: the BJ deal first and foremost, the 5th year on the Uggla extension, and the KK experiment. He had other moves that did not pan out as desired (McClouth, the Uggla trade, etc.). That's too be expected no matter how good of a GM one is. He held his ground on not overpaying with impact prospects to fill potential needs (Hanson for Peavy, Simmons for JUp) and built the team around those youngsters. He came out a head in most trades and had a few steals (Renteria for Jurrjens, Infante/Ohman deal, Vazquez for Flowers, and the JUpton deal). He was also great at finding pieces on waiver wires and filling needs especially when it came to the pen and rotation. How much that was due to Wren or his assistants is up for interpretation, though.
As you look into it deeper, though, there were some pretty apparant warning signs that some of us in Wren's corner turned a blind eye to. One is from a player development stand point. There is no doubt that our farm system has slipped signifcantly as we went deeper into Wren's & Manno's tenure. Granted we graduated a lot of talent throught the years, but some of that is due to the old management team and the cupboard at this time is pretty bare.
I'm still under the assumption that Bobby was forced out. It didn't make any sense at the time why Bobby would want to step down going through all those down years from 2007-2009 and step away at a time when so much young talent was right at the doorsteps ready to make an impact. We know Wren and Bobby had their head to head battles, and I think Wren wanted nothing more than a yes man....and he got it in Fredi. A lot of the same failings that happened under Wren in Baltimore seemed to manifest itself and show up once again in Atlanta when Wren was given more and more control. Wren got a pass in Baltimore due to Angelos, but there is a trend here.
Wren seemed like a reactionist. Remember the Furcal debacle that was embarrassing as hell. Whenever he had money to spend, he spent it on needs and didn't look at unconventional ways to solve problems and often did not look at the big picture. And while I supported most of the moves that he made on a baseball level, there was almost a sense that Wren was in the mode to get a deal done as quickly as possible. While I like the fact he acted on instinct, at times it was to his detriment.
We have not been able to put together a viable coach that can rely to the players hitting since Pendleton was demoted. I always thought in this case Wren never did do his due dilgence both times in the search. His first go round was like he was trying to light the world on fire, his first interview was Parrish and he shined in the interview, but had no experience and ended up being a disaster. His second search wasn't much more exhaustive, as it seemed he was more interested in getting someone with experience that had local ties and wanted to be here instead of performing an exhaustive search both times, talking to many people, and hiring the best candidate. I don't know what everyone else expected with Walker, the same problems we are having now are the same exact sentiments that people around the White Sox camp were saying before his dismissal.
And with that, through all of this, young new Wren was good, the more power Wren was given the more blunder prone and arrogant he become, causing the strain it has caused within the organization. It's dumfounding that he fooled around as long as he did with McDowell almost losing him. No matter what some may believe here, McDowell is a top 3 pitching coach at the MLB level. We'd be lost without him. The instructional instutions in the minors lost structure and are in need of major repair and stability.
While I was in Wren's camp at first, he needed to go and was a huge problem.
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
That's what I think happened. He convinced ownership to shell out the money for Santana with a promise that this was our year. Anything less than a playoff appearance and he was gonna be fired.
VirginiaBrave
Well-known member
Answer me this, why is everyone wanting Terry Pendleton to have more responsibility??? I was around under a different screen name over at Scout, and a lot of this same crowd was screaming for his head in '07-'09 when he was hitting coach? If it were anybody but Gonzalez I'd say Bobby Cox will be our new manager...
Blasphemous, I know, but count me as being in the camp with those who want no part of this "committee" conducting the "search" and making the "decision" unless the committee is suddenly whittled down to Hart alone.
I grew up with this team in the dark ages of the 70s and 80s, leading to incredible happiness when the planets FINALLY aligned and the streak started. I remember where I was EVERY NIGHT of July and August of 1991...from crying in my beer when Liebrandt lost to Cincy the night before the break started (dropping us 8.5 back - WITHOUT any hope of a wildcard) and whining that they were done if they didn't reel off 10 straight coming out of the break, then being absolutely beside myself when Smoltzie shut down the feared Pirates two Mondays later when they'd reeled off 9 of the first 11. It was a roller coaster ride the rest of the summer until Smoltzie threw a CG at an Astros' lineup with Kenny Lofton, Steve Finley, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Luis Gonzalez, and Ken Caminiti to put us 2 up with 1 left.
I can remember every playoff run, every trade, pretty much every single action over the 23 years since that all started, and can say one thing with comfortable certainty - I hope I never hear about the "Braves' Way" ever again. The entire organization has morphed into John Schuerholz/Bobby Cox - Kevin Millar said it perfect this afternoon when he described the franchise in one word...uninspiring.
The difference between when the "Braves Way" worked and today you ask? Personalities and fire. There were players all over that had both back in those days - Smoltz/Glavine/Maddux/Pendleton/Justice/Gant/and on and on. We even had old high-strung Rockin' Leo in the dugout every night. There's not a single player or coach in that clubhouse today with that kind of edge. Bobby and JS never had to say anything to the players because those guys took care of it. This team has worlds of talent, but it's empty talent - there's not a single leader in the bunch (not even the injured guys like Medlen who's probably the closest thing to one).
Replacing Schuerholz with Wren, and then with Coppolella, and Bobby with Fredi ain't going to do it folks. It's time to reboot the entire organizational strategy and get personalities as well as players that fit it. Both the new GM AND Manager should come from outside of the organization and EVERY player needs to be considered "available" if the return is fair. If you don't take those steps, you're going to be trying to sell the same old boring product when you open the new stadium.
I grew up with this team in the dark ages of the 70s and 80s, leading to incredible happiness when the planets FINALLY aligned and the streak started. I remember where I was EVERY NIGHT of July and August of 1991...from crying in my beer when Liebrandt lost to Cincy the night before the break started (dropping us 8.5 back - WITHOUT any hope of a wildcard) and whining that they were done if they didn't reel off 10 straight coming out of the break, then being absolutely beside myself when Smoltzie shut down the feared Pirates two Mondays later when they'd reeled off 9 of the first 11. It was a roller coaster ride the rest of the summer until Smoltzie threw a CG at an Astros' lineup with Kenny Lofton, Steve Finley, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Luis Gonzalez, and Ken Caminiti to put us 2 up with 1 left.
I can remember every playoff run, every trade, pretty much every single action over the 23 years since that all started, and can say one thing with comfortable certainty - I hope I never hear about the "Braves' Way" ever again. The entire organization has morphed into John Schuerholz/Bobby Cox - Kevin Millar said it perfect this afternoon when he described the franchise in one word...uninspiring.
The difference between when the "Braves Way" worked and today you ask? Personalities and fire. There were players all over that had both back in those days - Smoltz/Glavine/Maddux/Pendleton/Justice/Gant/and on and on. We even had old high-strung Rockin' Leo in the dugout every night. There's not a single player or coach in that clubhouse today with that kind of edge. Bobby and JS never had to say anything to the players because those guys took care of it. This team has worlds of talent, but it's empty talent - there's not a single leader in the bunch (not even the injured guys like Medlen who's probably the closest thing to one).
Replacing Schuerholz with Wren, and then with Coppolella, and Bobby with Fredi ain't going to do it folks. It's time to reboot the entire organizational strategy and get personalities as well as players that fit it. Both the new GM AND Manager should come from outside of the organization and EVERY player needs to be considered "available" if the return is fair. If you don't take those steps, you're going to be trying to sell the same old boring product when you open the new stadium.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
I agree with much of what you said. I think Wren did well in some areas and poorly in others. But even a resurrected Ty Cobb couldn't teach some of these guys the basics of hitting. You can strike out a ton if you are J. Upton. You can't if you are Chris Johnson. But nothing short of surgically removing Johnson's arms could keep him from swinging at darn near everything. The most telling stat this season is that the Braves lead the league (perhaps all of baseball) in swinging and missing at pitches in the strike zone. There's no amount of coaching that can correct that without totally re-building guys, which you really can't do at the big league level.
CyYoung31
Shift Leader
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
I don't agree with the entire post, but there are some important points there. We used to be a feared organization. That is no longer the case. We need to be reinvigorated on several levels.
CyYoung31
Shift Leader
"Feared"? WTF does that even mean? We're the winningest team in baseball since 2009. But, yeah, people should be scared of us. That's what matters.
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
I'm not going to get into very deep, but I believed that the biggest problem with this team was the construction of the everyday players we have thanks to Wren than Fredi. Fredi drives me insane and he does some incredibly stupid things (BJ leading off, Kimbrel in the BP against the Dodgers), but I blame this all more on Wren than anyone.
That being said, I think both Fredi and Wren need to go. Just blow it up with those two. I love the idea of Coppolella for GM, the guy is just a genius.
I love the idea of Dayton as well...
As I type this, BJ Upton strikes up again... yup, good moves so far. lol
That being said, I think both Fredi and Wren need to go. Just blow it up with those two. I love the idea of Coppolella for GM, the guy is just a genius.
I love the idea of Dayton as well...
As I type this, BJ Upton strikes up again... yup, good moves so far. lol
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
Winningest since 2009...and where exactly the **** has that gotten us???
Hell, might as well just keep everyone. You know since we're the winningest team.
Hell, might as well just keep everyone. You know since we're the winningest team.
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
Why should we fire anyone? We have the best record in baseball since 2009!!!
I think Cy's point is we have a lot of things going right for us we just need tweaking to bring our organization to the next level. Winningest team since 2009 does bring weight because it means the next GM candidate isnt walking into a fixer upper just needs to make some adjustments.
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
And how does that differ from what I've said? We can't keep going in the direction we've been going. Otherwise, Wren, who has been GM since 2009, would not have been canned today. We have talent, yes, but we're coming up on 20 years since we won it all. 15 years since our last World Series. 13 years since our last postseason series win. We have a weak farm system at the upper levels. We used to go out there every night expecting to win, and people were chasing us. We don't have that swagger anymore.
We don't have to blow up the entire thing, but we have got some significant changes to make.