Wren "dismissed" --

If you want to keep it in the Braves fold and want to add a little more fire, make Pendleton the manager.
 
You're assuming we're going to get worse year in and year out from here.

I think if Wren stayed on he would've made some improvements to the team this offseason. Maybe it would've won us the division again but it maybe wouldn't have gotten us to the WS.

While our farm system isn't as prized as it used to be, you have to attribute that to other variables such as other teams with big money spending more money on player development now than they ever did. The Yankees used to be free agent kings, now they've spent a huge chunk of their cash on player development. Epstein is doing the same thing with the Cubs. We used to be one of the few that really really emphasized player development over most organizations. Now the rest of the league is catching up to us. Also, we have graduated a good amount of talent to the majors within the last 5 years. Not saying our farm can't improve but it hasn't been that bad under Wren, we've had a lot of good pieces contribute to the club from our farm.
 
cajunrevenge said:
That's what I think happened. He convinced ownership to shell out the money for Santana with a promise that this was our year. Anything less than a playoff appearance and he was gonna be fired.
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That might be one of the nails in the coffin, but this has been building for a while now which is why we brought in Hart last year. Sounds like Wren was really hard to get a long with and drove out a lot of talent from our organization.
 
cajunrevenge said:
That's what I think happened. He convinced ownership to shell out the money for Santana with a promise that this was our year. Anything less than a playoff appearance and he was gonna be fired.
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If I remember correctly, Liberty was not made aware of the Santana deal until after it happened and were none too pleased about it.
 
BJ#1FAN said:
If I remember correctly, Liberty was not made aware of the Santana deal until after it happened and were none too pleased about it.
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False rumor. They approved before the contract was signed. They did, however, question why the organization seemed so ill-prepared following Medlen and Beachy going down. They were none too pleased about that.
 
I haven't read the entire thread, and really, I'm not going to. The bottom line is this:

*The Braves have not won a playoff series in Frank Wren's tenure as the GM.
*The farm system has deteriorated during Frank's time as GM, with Bruce Manno (also dismissed) essentially running the player development aspects of the organization and Tony DeMacio running the scouting aspects.
*There have been too many reports of people not getting along with Frank and Bruce, whether it was Dom Chiti and Dave Wallace or Roger McDowell. Even Bobby Cox had to be talked out of resigning by JS after Frank was named GM.
*Every big contract that Frank has handed out that has not been a home grown talent has busted. The team has a lot of dead money tied up, has had a lot of dead money tied up, and looks to have even more dead money tied up down the road.
*The organization has gotten away from what worked for them as far as scouting and player development goes. The team used to routinely have a top rated farm system on a yearly basis. Now, they have a bottom 10 farm system that doesn't have a lot of great young talent coming up. This has to change with a renewed focus on getting young, talented players with the tools and the mental make up to succeed.

Frank isn't a terrible GM. He made some quality moves while with Atlanta, mostly on the lower level signings and trades. However, what did him in was his lack of people skills within the front office and the deterioration of the farm system. In fact, when I listened to JS on the radio, one of the first things he said was the importance of having a strong minor league system that was loaded with talented, winning players. Ours isn't.

Also, while I am not a fan of Fredi Gonzalez, the hate for him that is out there is completely irrational. He's not the best manager around, but he's also not a Kirk Gibson bad level manager. If we want to fire him because he doesn't pay attention to advance stats, then you just knocked out 95% of the managers in baseball. Even if he had maximized the line up as far as run expectancy goes, we are talking about tenths of a run per game difference. We aren't looking at a situation where hitting Heyward, Upton, Freeman, and Gattis at the top of the order in every game would have accounted for 2 more runs per game. We are looking at maybe 2 tenths of a run a game improvement, which over the long haul probably cost this team 2-3 games at the most.

What's interesting to me is the stats guys who want Fredi fired, when the most stats oriented GM in baseball, Billy Beane, essentially says that managers really don't have much impact at all on the game.
 
clvclv said:
Blasphemous, I know, but count me as being in the camp with those who want no part of this "committee" conducting the "search" and making the "decision" unless the committee is suddenly whittled down to Hart alone.

I grew up with this team in the dark ages of the 70s and 80s, leading to incredible happiness when the planets FINALLY aligned and the streak started. I remember where I was EVERY NIGHT of July and August of 1991...from crying in my beer when Liebrandt lost to Cincy the night before the break started (dropping us 8.5 back - WITHOUT any hope of a wildcard) and whining that they were done if they didn't reel off 10 straight coming out of the break, then being absolutely beside myself when Smoltzie shut down the feared Pirates two Mondays later when they'd reeled off 9 of the first 11. It was a roller coaster ride the rest of the summer until Smoltzie threw a CG at an Astros' lineup with Kenny Lofton, Steve Finley, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Luis Gonzalez, and Ken Caminiti to put us 2 up with 1 left.

I can remember every playoff run, every trade, pretty much every single action over the 23 years since that all started, and can say one thing with comfortable certainty - I hope I never hear about the "Braves' Way" ever again. The entire organization has morphed into John Schuerholz/Bobby Cox - Kevin Millar said it perfect this afternoon when he described the franchise in one word...uninspiring.

The difference between when the "Braves Way" worked and today you ask? Personalities and fire. There were players all over that had both back in those days - Smoltz/Glavine/Maddux/Pendleton/Justice/Gant/and on and on. We even had old high-strung Rockin' Leo in the dugout every night. There's not a single player or coach in that clubhouse today with that kind of edge. Bobby and JS never had to say anything to the players because those guys took care of it. This team has worlds of talent, but it's empty talent - there's not a single leader in the bunch (not even the injured guys like Medlen who's probably the closest thing to one).

Replacing Schuerholz with Wren, and then with Coppolella, and Bobby with Fredi ain't going to do it folks. It's time to reboot the entire organizational strategy and get personalities as well as players that fit it. Both the new GM AND Manager should come from outside of the organization and EVERY player needs to be considered "available" if the return is fair. If you don't take those steps, you're going to be trying to sell the same old boring product when you open the new stadium.
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It's certainly up to you if you want to view a critique provided by someone whose IQ is smaller than his waistband, but Millar is a clown. I get the "Braves' Way" thing gets worn out a bit and our success in from 1991 to the mid-00's was aided by the healthy payroll, but there was a consistent program top-to-bottom in the system that is sadly lacking right now and that falls at Wren's feet.

Those of us who have bemoaned the state of the farm system get called out for ignoring guys who have graduated to the bigs, but there haven't been many key performers brought into the system during the Wren regime. And, as I said earlier today, just because you graduate a bunch of guys early doesn't mean you shouldn't keep drafting and developing. We probably have a Bottom 10 farm system right now and if you are going to be on a tight budget--which we supposedly are--you have to do better than the regime has done.

Fire is all well and good, but all the guys you mention happened to be excellent players as well as good leaders. I agree that we shouldn't try to shoehorn everything into a pattern that may have lost luster. I think all successful franchises are flexible in how they approach things and I think that was a hallmark during the Braves' successful run. Bobby managed a lot of different ways during his tenure.
 
CyYoung31 said:
Again, why isn't JS getting any blame for any of the decisions that were made under Wren, I guarantee you he had just as much as a say as Wren did.
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I've been thinking the same thing. It's something to keep in mind. JS has enough of an ego (said with due respect to his accomplishments) that he wouldn't have hung around in an emeritus role with no real say. He should take some heat for this, too.
 
I'm always intrigued by behind the scenes tensions whether it be our club or any club.

Where do you guys hear and read about all the stuff about behind the scenes that Frank was hard to get along with many people in the organization? Schultz's article was first I'd heard about the rift between Wren and coaches/front office.

Considering Wren was JS' right hand man for many years, I'm surprised he ended up being outcast as such a Non-Braves Way type of guy.
 
Apologize for being testy earlier. Been a very frustrating season. Never would have thought a few months ago, we'd be done with a week left and be talking about who the next GM, possible manager would be.
 
I don't know what Liberty knew and what they didn't, but if we don't sign Santana, we're drafting in the Top 5 in June 2015.
 
BJ#1FAN said:
Considering Wren was JS' right hand man for many years, I'm surprised he ended up being outcast as such a Non-Braves Way type of guy.
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Because ultimately someone needs to be the fall guy, and you can bet your house (well don't do that, just ask David Justice) that suspenders will take responsibility.
 
BJ#1FAN said:
You're assuming we're going to get worse year in and year out from here.

I think if Wren stayed on he would've made some improvements to the team this offseason. Maybe it would've won us the division again but it maybe wouldn't have gotten us to the WS.

While our farm system isn't as prized as it used to be, you have to attribute that to other variables such as other teams with big money spending more money on player development now than they ever did. The Yankees used to be free agent kings, now they've spent a huge chunk of their cash on player development. Epstein is doing the same thing with the Cubs. We used to be one of the few that really really emphasized player development over most organizations. Now the rest of the league is catching up to us. Also, we have graduated a good amount of talent to the majors within the last 5 years. Not saying our farm can't improve but it hasn't been that bad under Wren, we've had a lot of good pieces contribute to the club from our farm.
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The question is how he would have done that. There's a bit of payroll flexibility with Santana off the books, but if you move guys like Chris Johnson, you'd get next to nothing in return. Our best trading chips would be Simmons and Gattis, but moving them creates holes. Not much ready to contribute in the farm system. Whoever inherits the reins is inheriting a bit of a mess with a questionable amount of leeway depending on Liberty's whims.
 
50PoundHead said:
The question is how he would have done that. There's a bit of payroll flexibility with Santana off the books, but if you move guys like Chris Johnson, you'd get next to nothing in return. Our best trading chips would be Simmons and Gattis, but moving them creates holes. Not much ready to contribute in the farm system. Whoever inherits the reins is inheriting a bit of a mess with a questionable amount of leeway depending on Liberty's whims.
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We also have Peraza and Bethacourt as valuable trading chips. Hursh adn Sims as very valuable prospects as well.

What I think would be wise to do is work on extensions first, then start looking at improving the team. Jason, Justin, Freddie, Simmons, and Gattis are 5 quality position players to build around, Julio, Minor and Wood are 3 quality starters to build around. And we have the best closer in the business. There's far worse situations to be in.

When you look at the other 3 positions. Johnson will almost certainly be better than this year, not by too much I think but still should be better. Our worst players will be gone by default as they were Uggla and Doumit, maybe someone takes over for Doumit as the super sucky bench player who gets used way more than he should. TLS over Uggla should be a giant leap. Whether you think TLS is great or not, he's for sure better than Uggla was this year, if he doesn't hit enough Gosselin can be a capable platoon half.

the key with fixing our offense is Frediot. If he's gone we're fine. Him being gone would not have resulted in Gosselin starting over TLS. TLS will for sure be the better player of the 2. TLS, Jason and Freddie at 1-3 you have 3 guys who can walk and put the ball in play. None of them K too much, they all walk healthily and Heyward this year was the "worst" linedrive hitter at 19% so we have 3 guys who should be near or over .300 hitters. Justin hits the crap out of everything. We should have a solid 1-5, then Simmons is great with the glove and should be better with the bat, if we can get someone to convince simmons to hit liners and not popouts he'll be an asset of a hitter because of his contact skills. BJ has sucked massively, but if he and CJ are our worst players and they're replacement or above replacement, I'll deal with it.

Pitching I'm admittedly more concerned with. Assuming the budget is tight, we need to basically take 3 hail marys and bring in Floyd, medlen and Beachy for incentive laden deals.
 
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