2016 Presidential Primaries [ SUPER TUESDAY | 3-1-'16]
- Thread starter 57Brave
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acesfull86
Well-known member
1) My question is why Bernie thinks firms are not price sensitive to labor domestically (we can raise min wage without causing unemployment), but are price sensitive to labor internationally (Berine doesn't like free trade agreements because he thinks it gives firms more ability to outsource jobs). The point I'm trying to make is he is either 1) ignorant/illogical, 2) intentionally misleading to play to his populist base, or 3) one or more of my assumptions are faulty. I'm leaning towards #2, but #1 or #3 are possible and I'm curious to see what Bernie's supporters (seems like the majority of the posters here) think.
2) "Freer" as in fewer tariffs, fewer quotas, fewer nontariff barriers, less retaliatory protectionism, more peaceful cooperation between nations...things most economists agree increase the social welfare of the world as a whole. But the TPP (of which I also haven't looked through all the ins and outs of), would probably deserve a thread of its own. I'm not sure why Zito brought it up as a response to my question because one doesnt have anything to do with the other. Whether the answer is a "yes" or a "no," the question of Bernie's logic still remains.
2) "Freer" as in fewer tariffs, fewer quotas, fewer nontariff barriers, less retaliatory protectionism, more peaceful cooperation between nations...things most economists agree increase the social welfare of the world as a whole. But the TPP (of which I also haven't looked through all the ins and outs of), would probably deserve a thread of its own. I'm not sure why Zito brought it up as a response to my question because one doesnt have anything to do with the other. Whether the answer is a "yes" or a "no," the question of Bernie's logic still remains.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
1. I think you're confusing a lot of things here. For starters we're already getting closer to eliminating much of the need of outsourcing jobs. In the not too distant future instead of having iPhones be build by children it will be built by 3D printers. Thus ending the need for cheap international labor. What Sanders is arguing is that firms are price sensitive to labor in the wrong way. Wanting higher minimum wage and less money flwoing to the top is the same in both cases.
2. I asked you because anyone who thinks TPP is good or makes markets freer is being hoodwinked. Free trade doesn't involve corporations brokering agreements with nations to rape resources of 3rd world countries to make products for first world countries and continue to have wealth flow to the top.
2. I asked you because anyone who thinks TPP is good or makes markets freer is being hoodwinked. Free trade doesn't involve corporations brokering agreements with nations to rape resources of 3rd world countries to make products for first world countries and continue to have wealth flow to the top.
acesfull86
Well-known member
If you read Sanders' piece on why the TPP must be defeated (from sanders.senate.gov) literally his first of 10 reasons is because it will allow corporations to outsource more American jobs (because the price of labor is cheaper). There's nothing from him saying "hey we don't have to worry about outsourcing because 3D printers!" I don't think I'm confused...I'm taking Sanders' words right from the page.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Change in manufacturing is my own add on. Innovation often outpaces corporate bull****.And we have seen an outsourcing of American jobs for not a massive savings either. And it being economically unsound for the US to do as well from a whole country stand point. When we started exporting our jobs in the 70s and 80s we saw less economic growth. Even the dotcom boom only was like an 8% GDP improvement where in the 50s and 60s 10% happened somewhat regularly and they didn't require commodity bubbles to get there.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
I'm torn at a level. Our domestic steel industry is in the crapper and folks like to carp about the unions and domestic labor costs, but our workers would be darn near working for the minimum wage to have to be price competitive with a Chinese government that subsidizes the Chinese steel industry and allows them to sell at a loss. So mark me down as wanting freer trade, but everyone has to play.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
There you described the issue free market requires an even playing field. And countries manipulating their currency doesn't make for a level playign field.
goldfly
<B>if my thought dreams could be seen</B>
yep :medal:
acesfull86
Well-known member
I find it to be no more ridiculous than socialist Sanders bemoaning how many deodorant choices we have in America, but I guess it's all a matter of perspective.
sturg33
I
To be fair - the isle is getting a little ridiculous. I would like the government to choose one for me - then the cost savings could be forced upon a minimum wage hike.
win win win
sturg33
I
Still baffling to me that you could support both
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Why? If he aligns more with one one cycle then he does. I'm rooting for Bernie to get the dem nod because I think he's better than the status quo. Would be interesting have a Bernie/Paul presidency. I'd almost bet someone like Bush or Hildog would run 3rd party.
sturg33
I
Because they're on opposite ends of the economic spectrum.
goldfly
<B>if my thought dreams could be seen</B>
well, thankfully i have changed and seen the world in a different way
"A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life." – Muhammad Ali
i know it hasn't been 30 years
i also don't like the establishment