Yet Another Mass Shooting

BedellBrave said:
You really don't know if it has "worked."
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of course it hasn't

but play the silly "works in mysterious ways" etc card

i will pass that a long to the dead children parents and family members. it will make it all ok

also, it hasn't worked cause we are talking about free will of humans. so praying it away can't work in a religious way anyway
 
Before coming to solutions we need to know the options. Reason why I would like to see people discuss what is on the table. I've shown what 3 POTUS candidates have brought to the table

I reverse order your points
Guns are not going to be banned. No one of either party can win a seat at the table advocating banning firearms.++

Most inner city violence is , what kind of violence? Gun ?++

No, we shouldn't ban alcohol - and, I really don't get your point, no one of consequence is advocating banning anything

You obviously have a handle on what the gun violence was in GB and Austrailia -- quit being cute and show your math
 
57Brave said:
Before coming to solutions we need to know the options. Reason why I would like to see people discuss what is on the table. I've shown what 3 POTUS candidates have brought to the table

I reverse order your points
Guns are not going to be banned. No one of either party can win a seat at the table advocating banning firearms.++

Most inner city violence is , what kind of violence? Gun ?++

No, we shouldn't ban alcohol - and, I really don't get your point, no one of consequence is advocating banning anything

You obviously have a handle on what the gun violence was in GB and Austrailia -- quit being cute and show your math
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Im waiting for your solution
 
I've repeated my solutions many times over the years and going back to the Scout board. Tax the piss out of the manufacturers and retailers.
Along the lines of how we dealt with tobacco/cigarette smoking
Realistically, it has about a 1 % snowballs chance in hell.
I understand that

My real life solution goes more along the lines of ACA -- > Single Payer Universal cradle to grave health care.
It will take incremental changes.

For now, mandatory background checks through a (R) congress would be a start.

Let's bear in mind. It was the late 40's when Truman mixed the races in the military - about the same time as Jackie Robinson broke into MLB. That took over half a century getting to there. Still yet another 20 years until meaningful Civil Rights legislation integrated our society. We are still struggling with race - meaning, there are no solutions per se

Change does not happen fast in our country - and serious gun regulation would be monumental change.
But, a journey starts with the first step
 
Runnin said:
I don't believe the poster asking for prayers was thinking that it would stop future gun violence, nor was he even thinking of that. He can correct me but I believe he was merely expressing sadness and seeking compassion for his friends and neighbors in the common language of our times, by asking for prayers. Even if you're an atheist you should be able to understand this and act accordingly.
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I wasn't addressing other individuals from this board in my post; I was addressing the public at large. I suggest that you stop assuming things and putting words in people's mouths (i.e. mine) when you are misinformed.

To address your comment: prayers literally do nothing other than show compassion. You can show compassion and understanding without praying or being religious. Praying just reinforces falsehoods, especially when tragedies happen, and in cases of shootings tend to lead to no action being taken, and the record keeps repeating.

Pray all you want, but, it won't do anything to help the situation or people who were killed or injured; action against individuals who commit these heinous acts, and regulations to prevent easy access to weapons will.
 
57Brave said:
I've repeated my solutions many times over the years and going back to the Scout board. Tax the piss out of the manufacturers and retailers.
Along the lines of how we dealt with tobacco/cigarette smoking
Realistically, it has about a 1 % snowballs chance in hell.
I understand that

My real life solution goes more along the lines of ACA -- > Single Payer Universal cradle to grave health care.
It will take incremental changes.

For now, mandatory background checks through a (R) congress would be a start.

Let's bear in mind. It was the late 40's when Truman mixed the races in the military - about the same time as Jackie Robinson broke into MLB. That took over half a century getting to there. Still yet another 20 years until meaningful Civil Rights legislation integrated our society. We are still struggling with race - meaning, there are no solutions per se

Change does not happen fast in our country - and serious gun regulation would be monumental change.
But, a journey starts with the first step
Click to expand...

Taxing the manufacturer's doesn't make a lot of sense... they are just making a product. Taxing the retailers doesn't make a lot of sense. They are just selling the product. You could tax the product itself... but then the government would have to pay the most of it, because they are by far and away the biggest gun buyer in this country.
 
Just read that the guy was specifically targeting Christians... not sure if true, but if so - we should ban atheists.
 
goldfly said:
of course it hasn't

but play the silly "works in mysterious ways" etc card

i will pass that a long to the dead children parents and family members. it will make it all ok

also, it hasn't worked cause we are talking about free will of humans. so praying it away can't work in a religious way anyway
Click to expand...

Assertions aren't arguments or proofs. Here's my own assertion - you have no idea whether prayer "works" or not.

You just mouth words.
 
Krovahn said:
I wasn't addressing other individuals from this board in my post; I was addressing the public at large. I suggest that you stop assuming things and putting words in people's mouths (i.e. mine) when you are misinformed.

To address your comment: prayers literally do nothing other than show compassion. You can show compassion and understanding without praying or being religious. Praying just reinforces falsehoods, especially when tragedies happen, and in cases of shootings tend to lead to no action being taken, and the record keeps repeating.

Pray all you want, but, it won't do anything to help the situation or people who were killed or injured; action against individuals who commit these heinous acts, and regulations to prevent easy access to weapons will.
Click to expand...

Ironic.
 
Here's a law to try - anti-Christian bigots can't legally buy or own guns. Do background checks on their social media postings and if they rant like some of you guys, they are placed on a national data base.
 
A criminologist's take on the numbers:

"...Further adding to the state of alarm and confusion, headlines featured scary yet conflicting statistics from various sources. By reducing the standard threshold in defining a mass shooting (four or more killed by gunfire, not including the perpetrator), the incidence can reach incredible proportions. For example, the “Mass Shooting Tracker” website redefines a mass shooting as an incident in which at least four people (including the assailant) are shot, but not necessarily killed. By this criterion, there have been nearly 300 thus far this year.

Notwithstanding the sadness caused by each of these tragedies, nothing has really changed in term of risk. One can take virtually any period of months or years during the past few decades and find a series of shootings that seemed at the time to signal a new epidemic. The ‘80s were marked by a flurry of deadly postal shootings, which gave rise to the term “going postal.” The ‘90s witnessed a string of mass shootings in middle and high schools carried out by alienated adolescents with access to borrowed guns, prompting the venerable Dan Rather to declare an epidemic of school violence.

More recently, the “active shooter” has become the new boogeyman armed with a gun. Of course, there were shootings in public places long before this frightening catchphrase was created. Nowadays, any time someone shows up with a gun in a school, a church, a movie theater, a shopping mall or a restaurant, twitter becomes alive with messages of alarm.

I certainly don't mean to minimize the suffering of the Oregon victims and their families, but the shooting spree is not a reflection of more deadly times. Consider the facts.

According to a careful analysis of data on mass shootings (using the widely accepted definition of at least four killed), the Congressional Research Service found that there are, on average, just over 20 incidents annually. More important, the increase in cases, if there was one at all, is negligible. Indeed, the only genuine increase is in hype and hysteria."

Link
 
BedellBrave said:
A criminologist's take on the numbers:

"...Further adding to the state of alarm and confusion, headlines featured scary yet conflicting statistics from various sources. By reducing the standard threshold in defining a mass shooting (four or more killed by gunfire, not including the perpetrator), the incidence can reach incredible proportions. For example, the “Mass Shooting Tracker” website redefines a mass shooting as an incident in which at least four people (including the assailant) are shot, but not necessarily killed. By this criterion, there have been nearly 300 thus far this year.

Notwithstanding the sadness caused by each of these tragedies, nothing has really changed in term of risk. One can take virtually any period of months or years during the past few decades and find a series of shootings that seemed at the time to signal a new epidemic. The ‘80s were marked by a flurry of deadly postal shootings, which gave rise to the term “going postal.” The ‘90s witnessed a string of mass shootings in middle and high schools carried out by alienated adolescents with access to borrowed guns, prompting the venerable Dan Rather to declare an epidemic of school violence.

More recently, the “active shooter” has become the new boogeyman armed with a gun. Of course, there were shootings in public places long before this frightening catchphrase was created. Nowadays, any time someone shows up with a gun in a school, a church, a movie theater, a shopping mall or a restaurant, twitter becomes alive with messages of alarm.

I certainly don't mean to minimize the suffering of the Oregon victims and their families, but the shooting spree is not a reflection of more deadly times. Consider the facts.

According to a careful analysis of data on mass shootings (using the widely accepted definition of at least four killed), the Congressional Research Service found that there are, on average, just over 20 incidents annually. More important, the increase in cases, if there was one at all, is negligible. Indeed, the only genuine increase is in hype and hysteria."

Link
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Using # killed instead of #shot/wounded to define a mass-shooting means you are missing the bigger issue. A mass-shooting should include killed and wounded, in my opinion. The FBI definition has 4+ dead as a mass-shooting; 4+ dead is a mass-murder, not just a mass shooting in my book.

But fine, if you want to use the FBI definition, there have been 32 'mass-shootings' (4+ people killed) in 2015. Already 50% higher than the study you referenced. Another 23 that have killed 3 people.

Hell, the post you linked to even references the fact of mass-shootings vs mass-murder and basically ignores to get to his '20 mass-murders' number.

Mass shootings where at least 4 people are wounded, if not killed, are at 297; a full order of magnitude higher than the mass-murder total.

http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...15-274-days-294-mass-shootings-hundreds-dead/

But, after considering all of this, even the stuff you posted... you (and quite a lot of people) are fine with 'just over 20 mass-shootings'? That seems acceptable to you or anyone else? That is disgusting.
 
In all seriousness, from my perspective there are two problems that need addressing. I think we get out of odds with one another and the conversation never goes very far because we tend to focus on one rather than the other. There's the external action (the heinous taking of human life) and there's the internal/heart/mental state from which the action flowed.

What actions - particularly cognizant of our very complex and diverse and large population - what actions can be taken both by the government and by citizens to impede those heinous external acts of murder? I'm open to stricter laws that are well enforced. But they need to be smart and not knee-jerk actions and they need to be framed in such a way that acknowledges the obvious - law-breakers break laws. Enforcement has to bite.

But then, shouldn't we seek to address the heart and mental issues and the cultures which feed and fuel those issues? And that gets very tricky as a nation that cherishes individual liberty.

57 puts taxing manufacturers of weapons on the table. Any other suggestions?
 
Krovahn said:
I wasn't addressing other individuals from this board in my post; I was addressing the public at large. I suggest that you stop assuming things and putting words in people's mouths (i.e. mine) when you are misinformed.
Click to expand...
1. Read the thread to know what discussion you are entering.
2. Be clear in your comments. If I was misinformed I was misinformed by you.

Krovahn said:
To address your comment: prayers literally do nothing other than show compassion. You can show compassion and understanding without praying or being religious. Praying just reinforces falsehoods, especially when tragedies happen, and in cases of shootings tend to lead to no action being taken, and the record keeps repeating.
Click to expand...
No one knows that to be true. On a personal level prayer/meditation has been proven to be effective in calming the mind and alleviating stress, quite useful in times of tragedy. I know you are talking about solving social problems by prayer but again, nobody was suggesting that. The OP only mentioned prayer by way of a cliched expression while expressing grief and seeking support from his online friends (note to self -- obviously a mistake). The tone deaf attack on prayer 'in general' must have felt like a slap in the face to someone already dealing with the shock of this tragedy.

Krovahn said:
Pray all you want,
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Thank you. I shall pray for you.

Krovahn said:
but, it won't do anything to help the situation or people who were killed or injured;
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Still confused?

Another good thing prayer does: it keeps you silent.
 
Runnin said:
1. Read the thread to know what discussion you are entering.
2. Be clear in your comments. If I was misinformed I was misinformed by you.

No one knows that to be true. On a personal level prayer/meditation has been proven to be effective in calming the mind and alleviating stress, quite useful in times of tragedy. I know you are talking about solving social problems by prayer but again, nobody was suggesting that. The OP only mentioned prayer by way of a cliched expression while expressing grief and seeking support from his online friends (note to self -- obviously a mistake). The tone deaf attack on prayer 'in general' must have felt like a slap in the face to someone already dealing with the shock of this tragedy.

Thank you. I shall pray for you.

Still confused?

Another good think prayer does: it keeps you silent.
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Very fine response.
 
BedellBrave said:
Runnin, aren't you in Japan? If so what do they do - not do on this issue? I know they are a much more homogenous culture which makes a difference. But I'd be interested in what they do.
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The culture is also non-confrontational and stresses personal responsibility. Passivity is probably a bigger problem and misdirected anger.

There are a few hunters with guns, but you have to go through special training and have a license to own one. The yakuza have guns and occasionally use them, usually on each other, but there just isn't much of a criminal element. Gangs here are guys on no muffler motorcycles riding around late at night.

After WWII the country made a concerted effort to soften, some would say feminize, the population starting with pre-school education. It seems to have mostly been successful.
 
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