Fredi fired

The Don said:
Do we keep the Fredi emojis or maybe just one?
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See what you can do with these.

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Notable tweets definitely interesting.

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Elliot Johnson's tweets have been most interesting.

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clvclv said:
No question. Again, I'm not the one saying that - I've been watching every inning like everyone here has.

The point was that if you haven't been, it's easy to say that none of that's relevant since the brass WON'T say that. The guys on XM have been saying for weeks that it's beyond ridiculous to try to hang any of this on Fredi, and they are right insofar as even the great Joe Maddon likely couldn't have squeezed more than a handful more wins out of this collection of players. Bench Aybar when you're BEST option behind him is Castro? Hit WHO behind Freeman? Play WHO at 3B? That's all outsiders can see, and the answers thus far have been Francoeur, KJ, A. J., Flowers, and Beckham. Many of them have said (correctly IMO) that Fredi's hands were completely tied if you're not willing to call guys like Swanson and Albies up. IF the brass has been telling the truth that they'll be called up when they're ready (or the best available options) and money and service-time AREN'T the overriding concerns, Fredi should've been able to pencil them into the lineup if winning games was important in any form. They (the talk show guys) understand the reasons you're trying to game everyone's clocks from an organizational standpoint, but they think it's "unfair" to hang anything on Fredi when you've given him no better options - and are playing keep-away with a couple as well. That's the point I find hard to argue with.
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While I would agree with what they are saying in that sense, I would also say that Fredi, despite being dealt a bad hand, has done nothing to mitigate the situation. You might ask what can be done to mitigate things? I'd say that AJP and Aybar alone have probably cost this team 3-4 wins this year with their defense, or lack thereof. Castro may not hit the ball better than Aybar, but he's a far better defensive player at this point. The same goes with Tyler Flowers.
 
I take no pleasure in Fredi's firing. Nobody could win with this roster. Nobody.

Did I disagree with his decisions? Sure.

I'm glad we can finally move on to another subject. Finally.
 
mossy said:
I take no pleasure in Fredi's firing. Nobody could win with this roster. Nobody.

Did I disagree with his decisions? Sure.

I'm glad we can finally move on to another subject. Finally.
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And now we can argue about who is best to succeed him.

I have no problem with the Snitker choice to manage the rest of the year. As I said earlier, this could be a prelude to a clean sweep of the coaching staff. If you go outside the system--and I kind of hope they do--the new guy's hands should not be tied.
 
50PoundHead said:
And now we can argue about who is best to succeed him.

I have no problem with the Snitker choice to manage the rest of the year. As I said earlier, this could be a prelude to a clean sweep of the coaching staff. If you go outside the system--and I kind of hope they do--the new guy's hands should not be tied.
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I would think at the very minimum, Eddie has a job for life. Not sure about Pendleton cause he'd probably want to manage somewhere else. Also what's Chino Cadahia up to these days?
 
I'm a little shocked that folks are against this move. Fredi was as good as gone the moment they decided to do the rebuild. The only reason he was kept when Wren was fired was to fire him right now to serve as the scapegoat for the team being bad during the rebuild. Now Fredi gets to play the "nobody could have won with this roster" card when he looks for another job. Not a bad position to be in at all actually.

He is bad tactically, but if the twet from Elliot Johnson is correct and the front office plays more of a role in lineup construction and pitching matchups...it might not matter who is named next manager, the same mistakes will continue to be made.
 
KB21 said:
While I would agree with what they are saying in that sense, I would also say that Fredi, despite being dealt a bad hand, has done nothing to mitigate the situation. You might ask what can be done to mitigate things? I'd say that AJP and Aybar alone have probably cost this team 3-4 wins this year with their defense, or lack thereof. Castro may not hit the ball better than Aybar, but he's a far better defensive player at this point. The same goes with Tyler Flowers.
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Not making any excuses for him at all. However,

1.) A. J. was behind the plate for most of the recent string of good outings for the young starters.

2.) If the argument is that this team would've won more games with a slight defensive upgrade at SS and C (and NO offensive upgrades) is your argument, that's a pretty thin argument.

Again, this is simply a REALLY bad team (quite possibly a historically bad team), and there was very little Fredi (or anyone else) could do to help that from the dugout. Many questions folks here asked over the winter have come home to roost, and the brass is doing it's best to take the focus away from them. Why wasn't David Freese the starting 3B from day one - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016? Why didn't you go get in a bidding war for someone like Cespedes when you had the chance - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016? Are you going to do so this winter if you get another chance - IF you want to be a better team in 2017? Why were Norris and Chacin in your rotation at any point - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016?

If you're going to be a bad team, commit to the young players you say you believe in and take your lumps. If money and service-time aren't a concern, let them take their lumps up here and find out whether you're right about them or not. Otherwise, don't act like this team could be better without better players.
 
clvclv said:
Not making any excuses for him at all. However,

1.) A. J. was behind the plate for most of the recent string of good outings for the young starters.
2.) If the argument is that this team would've won more games with a slight defensive upgrade at SS and C (and NO offensive upgrades) is your argument, that's a pretty thin argument.

Again, this is simply a REALLY bad team (quite possibly a historically bad team), and there was very little Fredi (or anyone else) could do to help that from the dugout. Many questions folks here asked over the winter have come home to roost, and the brass is doing it's best to take the focus away from them. Why wasn't David Freese the starting 3B from day one - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016? Why didn't you go get in a bidding war for someone like Cespedes when you had the chance - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016? Are you going to do so this winter if you get another chance - IF you want to be a better team in 2017? Why were Norris and Chacin in your rotation at any point - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016?

If you're going to be a bad team, commit to the young players you say you believe in and take your lumps. If money and service-time aren't a concern, let them take their lumps up here and find out whether you're right about them or not. Otherwise, don't act like this team could be better without better players.
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regarding AJ.. throw out catching the pitcher or throwing out runners or calling a game... AJ cost us 2 games in the first week by not handling easy throws.
 
clvclv said:
Not making any excuses for him at all. However,

1.) A. J. was behind the plate for most of the recent string of good outings for the young starters.
2.) If the argument is that this team would've won more games with a slight defensive upgrade at SS and C (and NO offensive upgrades) is your argument, that's a pretty thin argument.

Again, this is simply a REALLY bad team (quite possibly a historically bad team), and there was very little Fredi (or anyone else) could do to help that from the dugout. Many questions folks here asked over the winter have come home to roost, and the brass is doing it's best to take the focus away from them. Why wasn't David Freese the starting 3B from day one - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016? Why didn't you go get in a bidding war for someone like Cespedes when you had the chance - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016? Are you going to do so this winter if you get another chance - IF you want to be a better team in 2017? Why were Norris and Chacin in your rotation at any point - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016?

If you're going to be a bad team, commit to the young players you say you believe in and take your lumps. If money and service-time aren't a concern, let them take their lumps up here and find out whether you're right about them or not. Otherwise, don't act like this team could be better without better players.
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I do agree with this. There were certainly moves the FO could have made if the goal was truly to be better in 2016. Beckham, Bonifacio, Chacin, Frenchy and Norris were most certainly NOT the moves a team trying to win makes. Guys like Freese, Latos and Cespedes ended up signing for bargain rates contracts, and those are the EXACT types of contracts a mid-market team like the Braves should have been looking to acquire.

They didn't need to see what Garcia could do, everyone knew he was a disaster in the field. They didn't need to sign so many guys whose only role on a real MLB is the 25th guy on the bench. They didn't need to sign such terrible reclamation project starting pitchers when a high upside guy like Latos was available.

Basically, the only good signing they made this offseason was Flowers as backup catcher.

Having said that, the team losing doesn't have to be solely Fredi's fault in order to justify firing him. It isn't solely Aybar's fault the team sucks, but they will upgrade the SS position whenever they can. Just like Aybar, Fredi was a negative to the team, so the position of manager needs to be upgraded just like the SS position needs to be upgraded.
 
I have to think that Aybar's being in the lineup is a directive from the front office. If the goal were to win games, Castro would be out there. Lord knows, Castro can't hit, but he can do what Aybar is doing with the bat and play significantly better defense besides.

I'm assuming that, per the FO, we have to play Aybar in order to try to rebuild trade value. I know that we are all operating under the polite fiction that we are not tanking, but losing is quite possibly a beneficial byproduct of this strategy.
 
Enscheff said:
I do agree with this. There were certainly moves the FO could have made if the goal was truly to be better in 2016. Beckham, Bonifacio, Chacin, Frenchy and Norris were most certainly NOT the moves a team trying to win makes. Guys like Freese, Latos and Cespedes ended up signing for bargain rates contracts, and those are the EXACT types of contracts a mid-market team like the Braves should have been looking to acquire.

They didn't need to see what Garcia could do, everyone knew he was a disaster in the field. They didn't need to sign so many guys whose only role on a real MLB is the 25th guy on the bench. They didn't need to sign such terrible reclamation project starting pitchers when a high upside guy like Latos was available.

Basically, the only good signing they made this offseason was Flowers as backup catcher.

Having said that, the team losing doesn't have to be solely Fredi's fault in order to justify firing him. It isn't solely Aybar's fault the team sucks, but they will upgrade the SS position whenever they can. Just like Aybar, Fredi was a negative to the team, so the position of manager needs to be upgraded just like the SS position needs to be upgraded.
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I was disappointed they didn't pursue Freese. I'm not that high on Latos, but a one-year value reclamation contract would have worked.

Agree on Adonis Garcia. They knew what they had. They made the cardinal mistake of projecting on September performance. He's a 250 AB RH hitter off the bench player and I still can't believe they didn't see that from the get-go. As little as I think of Chris Johnson as a player, they should have just kept him around as a 3B/1B back-up (same thing he's doing in Miami) and not gotten involved in the whole Bourn and Swisher thing.

If I can fault the front office for anything in this mess is that they've been too clever by half with a lot of their moves and it's come back to bite them.
 
How do u square that with Snitker leaving Aybar out of tonights lineup.
Julio3000 said:
I have to think that Aybar's being in the lineup is a directive from the front office. If the goal were to win games, Castro would be out there. Lord knows, Castro can't hit, but he can do what Aybar is doing with the bat and play significantly better defense besides.

I'm assuming that, per the FO, we have to play Aybar in order to try to rebuild trade value. I know that we are all operating under the polite fiction that we are not tanking, but losing is quite possibly a beneficial byproduct of this strategy.
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nsacpi said:
How do u square that with Snitker leaving Aybar out of tonights lineup.
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My guess is there will be a heart-to-heart with Aybar at some point. The meeting will go something like "We know you want out of here so start putting your best foot forward so we can accommodate your desires." Maybe sitting him for a few days is the start of that.
 
clvclv said:
Not making any excuses for him at all. However,

1.) A. J. was behind the plate for most of the recent string of good outings for the young starters.

2.) If the argument is that this team would've won more games with a slight defensive upgrade at SS and C (and NO offensive upgrades) is your argument, that's a pretty thin argument.

Again, this is simply a REALLY bad team (quite possibly a historically bad team), and there was very little Fredi (or anyone else) could do to help that from the dugout. Many questions folks here asked over the winter have come home to roost, and the brass is doing it's best to take the focus away from them. Why wasn't David Freese the starting 3B from day one - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016? Why didn't you go get in a bidding war for someone like Cespedes when you had the chance - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016? Are you going to do so this winter if you get another chance - IF you want to be a better team in 2017? Why were Norris and Chacin in your rotation at any point - IF you wanted to be a better team in 2016?

If you're going to be a bad team, commit to the young players you say you believe in and take your lumps. If money and service-time aren't a concern, let them take their lumps up here and find out whether you're right about them or not. Otherwise, don't act like this team could be better without better players.
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Damn right.

Look, I don't have any particular love for Fredi Gonzalez nor his talents. But this firing, and the timing of this firing, is bull****. You want to blame somebody, take a hard look in the mirror. A little honesty and a little better judgement on how good- or bad - your ballclub is when you built it would have gone a long way with me.

All the PR spin in the world doesn't mean **** when you come out of the gate 4-17.

You lied, Coppalella. Or you're so delusional you think the rest of the National League gives a damn about the "Braves Way". Either way, look in the mirror. What you did today addresses nothing but ignorant fans who might think the manager was responsible for a club that wins 23% of the time - remarkably, less than the 2003 Detroit Tigers and on a par with the 1899 Cleveland Spiders.
 
Enscheff said:
I do agree with this. There were certainly moves the FO could have made if the goal was truly to be better in 2016. Beckham, Bonifacio, Chacin, Frenchy and Norris were most certainly NOT the moves a team trying to win makes. Guys like Freese, Latos and Cespedes ended up signing for bargain rates contracts, and those are the EXACT types of contracts a mid-market team like the Braves should have been looking to acquire.

They didn't need to see what Garcia could do, everyone knew he was a disaster in the field. They didn't need to sign so many guys whose only role on a real MLB is the 25th guy on the bench. They didn't need to sign such terrible reclamation project starting pitchers when a high upside guy like Latos was available.

Basically, the only good signing they made this offseason was Flowers as backup catcher.

Having said that, the team losing doesn't have to be solely Fredi's fault in order to justify firing him. It isn't solely Aybar's fault the team sucks, but they will upgrade the SS position whenever they can. Just like Aybar, Fredi was a negative to the team, so the position of manager needs to be upgraded just like the SS position needs to be upgraded.
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This is exactly why I've always said it should have been pretty obvious to everyone that what they were saying was mostly lip-service, and intended to pacify the less-knowledgeable fans. This is also a part their job, so I never understood the venom directed at the brass when someone here wanted to act like they were betrayed and lied to. Most people here were well-aware of exactly who these guys were, as well as what they were capable of. If you honestly believed they were signed as anything other than "names" to fill out the roster (and buy time for the kids), you didn't look very closely at their track records. None of these guys were "answers", and it wasn't only The Johns who knew that.

In the end, they handed Fredi a pile of *hit, and said "let's see what you can do with this". The answer? Not much. The important question (to me, anyway): Could ANYBODY?
 
Enscheff said:
I'm a little shocked that folks are against this move. Fredi was as good as gone the moment they decided to do the rebuild. The only reason he was kept when Wren was fired was to fire him right now to serve as the scapegoat for the team being bad during the rebuild. Now Fredi gets to play the "nobody could have won with this roster" card when he looks for another job. Not a bad position to be in at all actually.

He is bad tactically, but if the twet from Elliot Johnson is correct and the front office plays more of a role in lineup construction and pitching matchups...it might not matter who is named next manager, the same mistakes will continue to be made.
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I'm not against the move. I'm against anything that suggests 99% of the onus for this team's performance was not the fault of the front office.

I'm not fooled, and I hope nobody else is, either.
 
mossy said:
I take no pleasure in Fredi's firing. Nobody could win with this roster. Nobody.

Did I disagree with his decisions? Sure.

I'm glad we can finally move on to another subject. Finally.
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What's the over/under on a date for "Snitker is an idiot" posts?

I'll take June 30.
 
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